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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Arri Alexa and Mysterium-X...

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Johan Lindgren said:
I think the Alexa system makes a lot of sense. Sure the ProRes HQ option does not speak well to many of us in terms of getting the most quality out of the system. On the other hand, I know projects that have been mastered straight from RED proxys.
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In fact, I could name you (I won't, but I could) at least 5 major network television shows that are posted and delivered completely from either DNxHD (in at least 2 cases, DNxHD115) or ProRes files. And one of them is a show that was shot primarily on Red. The notion that RAW or 4K are necessary or even desirable for productions such as television series is simply not borne out by the facts.
 
I think it's just that all of us, including myself come from, good enough just isn't good enough. We want the best. But in the end, a lot of people with the money, the networks, the producers, the studios... they are ok with good enough, too much too complicated and their heads might flip upside down and implode.
 
I don't understand the huge amount of bashing people are laying on Arri. To me this could very well be a great tool to make films, and until people actually use the camera systems, both Epic and Alexa, judgement should be withheld until first hand knowledge is obtained.

cheers
Colin
 
Stuart English said:
This is an interesting point. But I'm left wondering how shooting to solid state media makes an Alexa more compatible with "heavily entrenched tape based post workflows". A second issue for workflow efficiency in TV production is whether the compressed video and metadata files are compatible with the large installed base of Avid NLE systems.

i.e. if you want to finish in a linear 1080p HDCAM SR bay, or perform editorial on an Avid, you may need to dub / transcode at least once anyway.
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I was referring to tape based workflows as one reason Genesis has been used in television production more than the Red One, not as a reason why Alexa might be preferred over RED MX. I think in the case of TV production, assuming image quality/sensitivity/camera form factor is comparable - (and I believe it will be in the 1080 broadcast world between Alexa and RED MX)- the simplest approach may be more likely adopted.

I think there is a lot of misunderstanding/misinformation about how to post and conform RED footage. There's a lot of software updates, incompatibilities and third party tools necessary to accommodate different methods. The fact that RED has produced so many DIFFERENT software products is confusing. REDRUSHES, REDLINE, REDALERT, REDCINEX, ROCKETCINE, etc. The color science keeps changing (improving) along with the builds. Most people on this board are up on all of it but it takes A LOT of time and effort to keep up and get the best results. I really enjoy it. I LOVE grading dailies on set with my DIT and having the knowledge to talk any post house or agency through various RED workflows if necessary. BUT It all adds up to some overwhelming, unknown, confusing, time consuming THING for producers to deal with. It's a lot simpler to tell a producer, editor, or post super the camera shoots ProRes files- you can just tape to tape it for the final grade.

There are a lot of times I wish the RED workflow and tools were simpler- pretty much only when I'm trying to explain it to someone else. I hope RED is able to streamline the workflow idea and make it simple and clear for everyone to really understand. I imagine this is already happening judging by how REDCINEX is coming along. A simple approach and a lot of education is the key to winning people over for RED post production.
 
Hi Colin,

I don't think there is bashing going on. I'm sure everyone agrees it will be a fantastic tool. What I think is happening is a sweeping sense of joy across the Red community that the horse they bet on has come in (or is coming in) in a way we wouldn't have thought possible.

For 2 years we've been classified as fanboys, the ones who are compromising, and the fools of the industry, but now we are on the doorstep of having a world class cinema tool that does not compromise or be seen as the cheap alternative if you can't get what you really want.

So yes, we will compare and scrutinize every aspect of Alexa to reinforce our belief in Red. Doesn't mean Alexa is any less a fantastic tool, just that we feel our Epics will be every bit as good in many things, and far exceed the spec in some areas.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
For the next few years, it may just be a judgement call as a renter which package to go for -- for a landscape movie, go for resolution over everything else, for an urban night movie, go for sensitivity over everything else, for the buyer, go for value-for-money over everything else. Different projects have different priorities.
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Amen David, well said. thread "noise" closed. (I wish)

Arri aimed Alexa for NOW (RED 1 and Established workflow)...and RED should feel flattered that their main differentiating feature-set appears to be a quicker PRORES path than a RED Rocket™ transcode.

RAW is yet to be determined.

RED is clearly aiming for the FUTURE. Been Jim's mantra since DAY 1. Matter of fact, he said if they don't, they will die.

High Frame Rates and Resolution paired with 2.5K Visually lossless recording to SSD is... the FUTURE.

Disrupting the market is never easy. People like M/ Most who to me (nothing personal) represent the status quo in Hollywood ---

the LATEST ADOPTERS OF TECHNOLOGY than any industry on the planet.

been the case since Talkies repalced Silents. Color replaced B&W

RED is operating in an industry that is, almost violently, opposed to change.

CHOICES are a good thing for ALL of us.
 
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Sanjin Jukic said:
Just add Aja KiPro to your RED kit and you are fine having still better performance and cheaper camera than Alexa.
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Please - don't let the fanboy get the better of you. While the KI Pro is a very cool product, it does not record in ProRes 4444, but rather ProRes 422. Also - nobody knows the quality of the signal the Alexa outputs vs. the 720p signal the RED outputs. Also - having two different boxes to manage with signal & power-cables isn't exactly as elegant as the Alexa where everything is built into one single (and - IMHO - well-designed) box. The HD-SDI signal coming from the RED is fine for monitoring but isn't exactly broadcast quality (as far as I understand in terms of debayer quality).
 
Mark L. Pederson said:
In other news .... Kodak has released a new film stock on Super-8mm. When you can't move forward fast enough .... might as well leap backward.
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Well, one could look at the other side of the coin too. When you really have no competition on the top level, with nobody near in image quality (35mm film) you might get bored and try something different (8mm).
 
Tim Morten said:
I'm on an M not an MX quite yet (and yes I do copy to a RAID before I edit, so if that's what you call skipping a lot of steps, you got me - copying files is some complicated sh*t). I use R3D all the way, which is completely feasible.

Want to use a system without R3D support? Yeah, then you transcode. So what? Taking film to a lab and getting it telecined for a decade is simple, but a simple format conversion is suddenly prohibitively difficult? Come on.

I guess you can argue that support for new resolutions/color-science on MX incurred a delay in workflow support. Let's discuss that subject after NAB. I think you're going to find that "out of the box" ProRes support isn't the advantage that you're making it out be.
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So what system are you using? And obviously you're not shooting your R1-M with Build 30 yet.

I'm not saying ProRes 444 is better than any RAW format, I'm saying that it's easier to work with. That in itself can make it attractive.

Think about it this way. Right now, outside of Scratch & RocketCine I believe, RedCine-X is the only piece of software that can decode the new B30+ Color Science. It's a beta-software, somewhat unstable. It's getting much better, but still a beta. What can take advantage of that for edit & conform as of right now? Clipfinder, with 10 steps to make it work. http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=42662
Most of us are waiting on a Redline update. We're stuck till then.

Either way you slice it, a Pro-Res camera delivery is attractive to a lot of people for a lot of different reasons.
 
Future Proofing Future Schmoofing. Unless you're shooting a feature film like Avatar there is no such thing.

Most of my work gets thrown away in less time than I spend working on it. I'm replacing a shot right now on something which aired 3 days ago. It lasted 3 days!

I suspect 95% of all RED work goes in the proverbial trash can within 8 weeks of completion.
 
Ok, if you don't want the resolution for future proofing, just use it for higher MTF at lower resolutions where it makes for a better image.

Graeme
 
CJ Roy said:
That's essentially what Arri's doing with the Alexa, right?
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But by not enough margin... That's why we think resolution is important. It's not just for the finest detail, but for the increase in MTF at lower details.

Graeme
 
Graeme Nattress said:
But by not enough margin... That's why we think resolution is important. It's not just for the finest detail, but for the increase in MTF at lower details.

Graeme
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Graeme-

Forgive my ignorance on this but if we were to compare Alexa to Red @ 1080, you're saying we should see a visible difference due to the MTF?

So if the Alexa's chip is a 3.5k sensor, debayering it would put it around 2.7k?
2.7k vs Red's 3.2k (16:9) is just a .5k improvement, yet it would still show up visually?

Thanks.
 
Sensor is 3.5k just as RED's is 4.9k - not all of it is recorded. 1080p is made from 2.8k, so it's 2.8k compared to 4k. That's why it's not enough. It's just enough to get 1080p luma. And of course, we're going way beyond 4k, with EPIC at 5k and moving onwards.

Graeme
 
Graeme Nattress said:
Sensor is 3.5k just as RED's is 4.9k - not all of it is recorded. 1080p is made from 2.8k, so it's 2.8k compared to 4k. That's why it's not enough. It's just enough to get 1080p luma. And of course, we're going way beyond 4k, with EPIC at 5k and moving onwards.

Graeme
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We're talking about a R1 sensor here, right? Where did 4.9k come from?
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
Future Proofing Future Schmoofing. Unless you're shooting a feature film like Avatar there is no such thing.

Most of my work gets thrown away in less time than I spend working on it. I'm replacing a shot right now on something which aired 3 days ago. It lasted 3 days!

I suspect 95% of all RED work goes in the proverbial trash can within 8 weeks of completion.
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I'm not disputing what you noted as your experience on the compositing/editing front. But as someone who has shot a lot of Red footage, and owns the copyright to a large portion of that footage, I have a different view about future-proofing my footage assets.

Copyright owned footage is one of the most valuable physical assets of any production entity, whether its a large large studio, medium sized production company, or small boutique owner/operator shop. The licensing of that copyright owned footage, in the form of stock footage and other production re-packaging, is a very viable revenue stream. Its a self-renewing resource, assuming that the footage was well-shot, in genres which will be in demand, and in a format which has "long legs" - in other words high production value footage in the highest resolution possible.

Re-purposing footage libraries, and licensing stock footage is something production entities of all sizes pay attention to. Tons of Red owner/operators (myself included) rely on stock footage licensing as a valuable part of our business plan. When we're not working on a specific project we're out shooting stock footage on a wide array of genres and subject matter. The stock houses invariably want Red stock footage at the highest resolution possible (4k if possible, but naturally 3k for higher frame rates), because at those resolutions it can be used for features, but also then resamples and scales really well for 1080 programs. They also like raw because it give them so many options for output to clients - something that makes them and us more money for our footage.

When I've shot stock footage with Red One it has almost always been at 4k HD or 4k 16:9 resolutions, unless I need faster frame rates, then its at 3k 16:9. When I shoot stock footage with Epic it will usually be at 5k for the above reasons.

Well shot footage in the highest resolutions possible, in popular genres and subject matter, will bring the copyright holder of that footage a nearly evergreen revenue source for many, many years to come - a long shelf life. It doesn't go in the trash can at all - it keeps generating revenue for many years into the future.
 
Graeme,

For a minute there I thought you were slightly and inadvertently
suggesting that the Scarlet 3k sensors would not have the best MTF
for down-conversion to 2K or 1080p. This is not the case......right?

You were talking about up-conversion then?
:confused1:
 
Steve Gibby said:
Copyright owned footage is one of the most valuable physical assets of any production entity, whether its a large large studio, medium sized production company, or small boutique owner/operator shop.
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With entering the stock footage game myself recently, I agree with you that you'd want the highest quality possible.

But that really is a niche market compared to most commercial production, which I think Gavin is referring to.
 
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