Arri Alexa and Mysterium-X...

[Hrvoje Simic]

That's quitter talk!

Heh heh. Nope.


I understand the practicality perspective. Viewed strictly through it I agree.

It's silly to say that the colorist should have to do it. Should REDCine only export 5600K white balanced images? "Let the colorist deal with it if it's tungsten." You'll never get the same quality of white balancing after it's been baked in.

Well, the colorist deals with colour.

Essential tools for developing RAW and precise look matching to other medium i.e. specific film stock are not the same thing, and I think they should be perceived and valued differently.

Gavin, I understand your point. What I'm saying is that it's a slippery slope and producers and self-proclaimed producers will jump to "make RED look like film" button, and just leave it at that, trying to save money on proper post.

If they can choose they won't care for "how good it might look" if it already looks "good enough" for them, because "good enough" looks even better with a view to more money in the wallet.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Gavin, I understand your point. What I'm saying is that it's a slippery slope and producers and self-proclaimed producers will jump to "make RED look like film" button, and just leave it at that, trying to save money on proper post.

You would have the exact same problem if you shot on film.

And personally I reject every "slippery slope" argument on principle.

Who's to say that white balancing isn't a slippery slope to a world where the auto-WB isn't just "good enough"?

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

You would have the exact same problem if you shot on film.

Digital route allows lower budgets and lower budgets bring more things taken for granted and more shortcuts.

And personally I reject every "slippery slope" argument on principle.

Okay then. How about "flippery flope" ?
Maybe..."double-edged sword" ?

Who's to say that white balancing isn't a slippery slope to a world where the auto-WB isn't just "good enough"?

White balance - standard, essential equipment
Stock emulation - optional, ordered separately

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Stock emulation - optional, ordered separately

Well you have to put out some colorspace/tonemap. Why not offer one which is similar to an existing well known one.

Personally though I wouldn't want RED holding back features because the quality will be so good that I might feel tempted to not spend more $$ on post. If you want to disable all the features on your camera so that your producers have no choice but to do a full supervised grade session then be my guest.

Considering Arri already has ArriCube I imagine they would have a relatively easy time offering this.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Personally though I wouldn't want RED holding back features because the quality will be so good that I might feel tempted to not spend more $$ on post. If you want to disable all the features on your camera so that your producers have no choice but to do a full supervised grade session then be my guest.

Holding back features ? Seems like a misunderstanding, but I'll leave it at that because this is going in a wrong direction. All in all...fun times ahead with digital tools...


Back to topic...

 

[Dane Brehm]

Best Picture this year was S16mm. Film is far from Dead.

It may be dying for Commercials, Music Videos, Promos pretty much anything going to a TV.

I'm sorry but show me a Cross-Processed Digital Look that matched the chemical response that film has.

I'm just curious when Film schools will stop being called film schools and in turn called Digital Film Schools

I make my living from Data Oriented Capture but Film is still King. The difference between Film & Data is 3% for budgets over $10million for 2D Features. Now for 3D features there is alot of benefits to shooting Digitally.

 

[Mark Collins]

Not sure if film is dead from this blow or not. personally I find shooting film far more rewarding than shooting digital, though I enjoy digital a lot.

I definitely enjoy the look of film, and the absolute care you have to take with each image. You must invest time and effort into making each shot work since film is expensive. That basically means that you must be careful and know what you're doing.

That being said, I take the same approach with digital as I do with film. I've seen far too many instances where people have no clue how to shoot at all, digital or film.

However, even though digital cinema is nice, I personally prefer film.

 

[Jason Ing]

The Vermeer style wide shot was shot on RED One Mysterium X, shot in 4.5KWS REDCODE 42 24fps at ISO 800.

Graded by me on set using REDCINE-X.

I'm pleased it was the mysterium x. It's a beautiful shot. Wonderfully lit... and graded! Would you be able to show a before and after still shot of the raw and your grading?

 

[Eisen Feuer]

Film will soon go the way of the woodburning stove, hand-drawn animation, and the muzzle-loader. They all do their jobs better today than when they were first invented, and are part of every day life for many around the world.

Just produced and wrapped a cell animation this week. Not sure if that is quite dead.

"Notice the "they're still used around the world" etc quote there,

I had a woodburning stove up until 4 years ago when we remodeled.
You just finished a hand-drawn animation,
and I've recently been out in the wilderness with a muzzle-loader myself.

None of them are dead in any way. Film has another 200 years in it at least, in fact I see someday some new chemistry just might give us resolution on the near molecular level that we can't get with sensor technology. My point was all these objects have modern replacements that do the job many times better. What modern restaurant would call a woodburning stove efficient? What soldier would use a muzzleloader? And in terms of hand drawn animation, most of the big guys like Disney have gone with digital painting. Ghibli Studios is famous for being the last stand of big names going hand-drawn.

So not dead, I'd never use that word. But backwards if you're looking for efficiency. As people have been saying the cosmetics of film can be unintelligibly reproduced in the digital realm. Film is about... working with film at this point. The same way as working with a pencil vs. a stylus. Nothing irreproducible on the visual end about it (please don't mince the minor details on that one, we're talking about the human eye ultimately). It's just gigage vs. footage in my book. One you can hold in your hand, the other you need an interpereter to see. If I ever get sick of hanging out in front of a computer screen, I'll invest in a darkroom.

 

[Jannard]

I don't think dead is the right term. Dying is better. Every day less.

Jim

 

[Jonathan Smiles]

I'm pleased it was the mysterium x. It's a beautiful shot. Wonderfully lit... and graded! Would you be able to show a before and after still shot of the raw and your grading?

I have asked for permission to do so.

 

[Hans Kiening]

Reading that link though, it's meaning of ISO is referenced back to a film stock. How is that to help us when we know that as mentioned earlier in the thread that the ISO rating of film stock is whatever the manufacturer thought best.

Albert

Hi Albert,

sorry for the delay - if you dont mind I would like to move the discussion around the ARRI chart into the arri forum.
I started a thread and hope everybody who´s intrested follows the diskussion there
http://www.arridigital.com/forum/index.php/topic,440.msg620.html#msg620

All the best
Hans

 

[Peter Strietmann]

"Notice the "they're still used around the world" etc quote there,

I had a woodburning stove up until 4 years ago when we remodeled.
You just finished a hand-drawn animation,
and I've recently been out in the wilderness with a muzzle-loader myself.

Around ten years ago I showed a film at the Berninale. During that time I was invited to the Arri factory in Munich. I remember being in the room where all the guys in white lab coats were building the 435s and 535s. We were discussing cameras and they asked me what I shot the film in the Berlinale on. When I told them it was a Sony HDW 700 (first hdcam feature) it was like I had told them I had just stabbed their entire family to death. I thought they were going to take me out back and beat me. So now I guess those same people are building D21s and Alexas and I'm shooting most everything on Red, Ex1s and 7Ds. Times change and so do we.

I also would like to mention I have a wood burning cook stove on my schooner and would not trade if for the world.

 

[Steve Dent]

Off-topic, Sanjin how do you like that Nespresso thing; I was just gifted one. I'm hoping to feel smarter every time I have a shot.

 

[David Rasberry]

Around ten years ago I showed a film at the Berninale. During that time I was invited to the Arri factory in Munich. I remember being in the room where all the guys in white lab coats were building the 435s and 535s. We were discussing cameras and they asked me what I shot the film in the Berlinale on. When I told them it was a Sony HDW 700 (first hdcam feature) it was like I had told them I had just stabbed their entire family to death. I thought they were going to take me out back and beat me. So now I guess those same people are building D21s and Alexas and I'm shooting most everything on Red, Ex1s and 7Ds. Times change and so do we.

I also would like to mention I have a wood burning cook stove on my schooner and would not trade if for the world.

We still use a wood stove for heating our modest home. We lost a bunch of mature red oaks to the southeast drought over the past couple of years, so fuel is plentiful and free for now. The radiant heat from the wood stove is far more pleasant and comfortable than forced air especially on cold damp days.
Peter I would love to hear more about your schooner. Who designed and built her?

I shot mostly 16mm film for TV in the 60's and 70's. It was a pleasant surprise to see best picture go to an S16mm production this year.As much as seeing the awards go to a 2/3" digital production last year. Love the format and its 2/3" digital sibling.

 

[Shawn Booth]

Film is a medium, not a living thing. It cannot "die". The medium is evolving/changing/whatever... And it will be a long process.

But what's more interesting is that with the abundance of "products" being shot digitally - we don't see too many GREAT "products", just a shit ton more crappy "products".

Perhaps focusing on storytelling rather than medium will yield better "product". I mean, take a great story/director/cast and shoot it on the Playskool camera and it is still great.

As an artist and cinematographer, I want the choice and options of what to shoot on.

My .02 in the "film is dead" obsession.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

I don't think anyone at RED is a "kill film" type person. We all love and enjoy the aesthetic of film, but knowing that it's on the tail end of it's bell curve, we seek to provide a valid digital alternative. Just as I still listen to and collect vinyl records, it will be the same that people buy, shoot, and project film for a long long time to come, but just as mp3 is now mainstream, digital will be mainstream. It doesn't invalidate film, and may even give some people the freedom to experiment more with film just as over the last 10 years we've seen some fabulous new vinyl record players and even new vinyl formulas for pressing and some higher quality too.

Graeme

 

[Michael Bravin]

I don't think anyone at RED is a "kill film" type person. We all love and enjoy the aesthetic of film, but knowing that it's on the tail end of it's bell curve, we seek to provide a valid digital alternative. Just as I still listen to and collect vinyl records, it will be the same that people buy, shoot, and project film for a long long time to come, but just as mp3 is now mainstream, digital will be mainstream. It doesn't invalidate film, and may even give some people the freedom to experiment more with film just as over the last 10 years we've seen some fabulous new vinyl record players and even new vinyl formulas for pressing and some higher quality too.

Graeme

One man's bell curve is another man's exponential curve. I guess it depends on your point of view.
I'm just sayin...

 

[Graeme Nattress]

I don't think there's been a media format that hasn't been on a bell curve of adoption. As for what you're saying, I have no idea actually...

Graeme

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Next cameras I'll use on 3 different projects.

Pat

PS: some shot on 7266 BW reversal film