Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Arri Alexa and Mysterium-X...

Status
Not open for further replies.
Dwight Tudor said:
What seems to have escaped everyone here is that the Red1 basically has a BAKED IN WB of 5000K. That's what's native to the sensor right? So that effectively becomes the "baked in" WB for the camera.

For years now, when shooting film, alot of folks have not used an 85 filter because it can effectively be corrected for in post, without problems.

You still need to shoot a grey card and color chart regardless of whatever you shoot Film, RAW, 444, 422, 420, 411 or whatever. So I'm not seeing any issue in Arri's methodology. Compressing the footage is much more of a concern to me than having to set the WB onset.
Click to expand...

Your kidding... right? And have you ever seen the compressed raw you are concerned about? Don't get me started...

Jim
 
Most "criticism" RED have to face are purely down to rumours and over-the-top misconceptions, it seems.

Red One having a baked in WB of 5000K is something that I have never heard before.
 
Dwight Tudor said:
What seems to have escaped everyone here is that the Red1 basically has a BAKED IN WB of 5000K.
Click to expand...

The native/optimal WB for the sensor is 5000K, but it is not a film stock and you are leaving out a very important variable: Image aesthetics.

What does the 5000K matter if I want a warm daylight look (after the fact) of 7300K. What if I want it around 6300K because creatively that is what best suits the mood of what I was trying to capture.

Having WB as metadata is a really nice creative tool and advantage. RED lets us know that the native WB of the sensor is 5000K to help us maked informed decisions about lighting and filtration.

We know that the camera (like all CCD and CMOS silicon sensors) prefers daylight sources. So armed with the correct information we can use tungsten lighting (with some blue correction to bring that warm into the cooler spectrum to produce images with less noise.

If you think this is a "problem" then just do a test with a camera like an HVX200. Use some CTB on the lighting, do a WB and you will see that you can eliminate noise.

One of the fundamental image choices RED made was to give US choices. No sharpening in Camera, no preset WB, etc. and yet, the uniformed crap on RED for it.

David
 
Or shoot M-X at 2100K and be thrilled with the result.

Jim
 
Jannard said:
Or shoot M-X at 2100K and be thrilled with the result.

Jim
Click to expand...

Ain't that the truth. It was fun on set yesterday playing back some night footage I had shot at around ISO 1600-2000. They were turning the brightness up on the monitors ready to point out the noise and when they had trouble finding it, they simply said "Wow!" It's that good.
 
All I'm saying is all this talk about a "baked in WB" being so incredibly bad is straight up poppycock. Which is why I say the native 5000k of the Red1 is similar. How we correct for these different native WB settings on cameras and film is to use filters, 85's, 80's, the whole lot. Hell, we've even used magenta filters on the Viper. So this whole discussion is ridiculous.

Before Red came around the general understanding of RAW was uncompressed, now apparently, it has to do with only not touching the color channels....

I have done a direct comparison between uncompressed, xdcam, redcode36, dvcprohd, AVC100, HDCAM, and HDCAM SR. So yes, Jim, I have seen the compressed raw I'm talking about.
 
Dwight Tudor said:
All I'm saying is all this talk about a "baked in WB" being so incredibly bad is straight up poppycock. Which is why I say the native 5000k of the Red1 is similar. How we correct for these different native WB settings on cameras and film is to use filters, 85's, 80's, the whole lot. Hell, we've even used magenta filters on the Viper. So this whole discussion is ridiculous.

Before Red came around the general understanding of RAW was uncompressed, now apparently, it has to do with only not touching the color channels....

I have done a direct comparison between uncompressed, xdcam, redcode36, dvcprohd, AVC100, HDCAM, and HDCAM SR. So yes, Jim, I have seen the compressed raw I'm talking about.
Click to expand...

Sorry... not buying it. Don't think you can sell this story to anyone that actually has a RED ONE or has seen RED footage on a 4K projector on a 40' screen.

We do direct comparisons every day here at the RED Studios to other studios, producers, directors and DPs. None of them has come to the same conclusion as you have.

Jim
 
chrislancaster said:
hello,,

sorry off topic of the off topic any news on tattoo??

:bigear:
Click to expand...

1st Tattoos will be delivered this month. Quantity has been cut because of the cost. Each one is hand made. Jarred and I are shooting them now.

Jim
 
Jannard said:
1st Tattoos will be delivered this month. Quantity has been cut because of the cost. Each one is hand made. Jarred and I are shooting them now.

Jim
Click to expand...


thats great ! i hope those guys are kind enough to share some info

(i mean the tattoo guys not you and jarred ..)

id love to see fxphd do a REDucation EPIC class ...

raising a family in Hawaii is costly so i cant fly out much

so it would be really great to have some alternative class instead of having to be there


but if immersion in person is the only way than i understand that 2
 
Graeme Nattress said:
.

Doing it optically lowers over-all sensitivity
Graeme
Click to expand...

Not sure I understand your reasoning.
Suppose you have to shoot under very unbalanced conditions, such as late afternoon when everything has a strong red cast.
If you open the iris up so that the red photocells are just at the point of clipping, the blue ones are going to well short of clipping, so you will be wasting some of the Blue dynamic range.
If you put a blue filter in to knock the red down a bit, you would then be able to open the iris up to get more light into the blue photocells without overloading the red ones. You should then get a better S/N in the blue channel without detracting from the red channel.
 
That's fine if you don't believe me, doesn't bother me at all. I know what I've seen and done. And I think we can all make incredible images on any of these formats, if you know their limitations.

So having to preset the WB onset with ArriRaw is a none-issue to me and many others, which is what I am saying.

Of course people who are in the lions den are going to say the footage is amazing, duh... You don't say you don't like what you're seeing to a billionaire who owns a camera company whose camera footage you just saw at the headquarters of the company with the engineers who designed it in the room... Just like you shouldn't wear a Panavision shirt at another rental house, it's poor etiquette.
 
Scott Crawley said:
Are we forgetting that this open development model that we are participaing in at RedUser is an annomally in this market? I wouldn't presume that Mr. Bravin has come to RedUser to poll the public and get design advice or feature requests this late in the game. Alexa is about to ship, so that particular ship has sailled. Mr. Bravin is largely here to go head to head, make comparisons, and promote their product... I presume.
Click to expand...

When you consider that the people here on RedUser have actually bought cameras-- spending an estimated $122 million dollars for the first 7000 Red Ones, not including accessories -- I would think Arri is very interested in what Red Owners think. This community is more than a group of fans --- it's the people who plunked down real money. Arri comes here to find their customers and if they're smart, they'll pony up whatever info the people on this forum want to know if they hope to gain market share.
 
So Michael still hasn't responded yet. With all due respect I'll recap what I understand and hope that Michael will correct any errors in my assumptions.

Alexa has baked in WB and Redcode does not.
Alexa has 2K resolution and Epic is 5K or Red One M-X is 4.5K.
Both M-X and EPIC and Alexa have 13.5 stops of DR.
Epic has 120fps and Alexa has 60fps.
Epic weighs 5 pounds and Alexa weighs 12 pounds.
Epic is $28,000 and Alexa is $65,000 base.

Did I get everything correct? I'm sure everyone would like to hear from Michael to confirm that these facts are correct or not.

I apologize for any past posts that seemed personal. I will now try to limit my posts to facts and questions without disrespectful packaging.
 
David Mullen ASC said:
Practically speaking, it's noise that limits your options. Even with Red, it has been stated that its best to begin grading by white balancing the converted RAW signal. So as long as the noise is minimal, your grading options are not limited by working with a balanced image as a starting point.

All that matters are results and practical workflow issues, not sticking to some ideal spec on paper...
Click to expand...

I have to respectfully disagree here. Having the ability to adjust WB at any point in the process is a huge practical workflow issue. Uploading LUTs to Camera while on set (while not baking them in) is becoming more and more frequent, and not having this feature can significantly alter how a production is planned, shot, and what post workflow is decided upon.

One other note... While there are always a few people who write non-productive posts on any forum, I think the majority of posts in this thread have been respectfully stated with legitimate concerns. Most people realize how forums work, and shouldn't shy away from answering important questions due to a few bad posts.

I know I have the utmost respect for ARRI, and have always admired their approach. They have had a significant influence on RED and I would like to think they should feel welcome here.

That being said... I'm looking forward to hearing the definition of ARRIRAW. ;-)
 
Phil Jordan said:
So Michael still hasn't responded yet. With all due respect I'll recap what I understand and hope that Michael will correct any errors in my assumptions.

Alexa has baked in WB and Redcode does not.
Alexa has 2K resolution and Epic is 5K or Red One M-X is 4.5K.
Both M-X and EPIC and Alexa have 13.5 stops of DR.
Epic has 120fps and Alexa has 60fps.
Epic weighs 5 pounds and Alexa weighs 12 pounds.
Epic is $28,000 and Alexa is $65,000 base.

Did I get everything correct? I'm sure everyone would like to hear from Michael to confirm that these facts are correct or not.

I apologize for any past posts that seemed personal. I will now try to limit my posts to facts and questions without disrespectful packaging.
Click to expand...

I'd like to also add, I am curious of the read-reset of the Arri as well.
 
Setting white balance after acquisition is incredibly valuable. There are so many productions now that shoot quick with mixed light, LED light, lights with odd tints etc. that setting on the day now is practically impossible. It is nice to kill a tint or zero in or fix an operator error after the fact. We can all agree its better to be able to set it in post, so there should be no argument anymore.

So we move on to boot time, which the Alexa is 40 seconds. And Read Reset, which is 17 milli-seconds. What is the Epic read reset again?
 
Dwight Tudor said:
Of course people who are in the lions den are going to say the footage is amazing, duh... You don't say you don't like what you're seeing to a billionaire who owns a camera company whose camera footage you just saw at the headquarters of the company with the engineers who designed it in the room...
Click to expand...

Dwight. These people aren't just saluting. They are changing their projects over to RED. That only happens when they see something they like. I actually think my personal history is an obstacle for people to get past.

Jim
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top