Arri Alexa and Mysterium-X...

[chrislancaster]

Now everyone is scared to post anything. Arri seems to have missed the boat when they decided to make a 2K camera instead of a 4K or 5K camera. I guess I may be banned for this post but it is true.

I dont believe they missed the boat they chose to go a different route based on their educated opinion of what they believe their targeted industry would want at this time.

They believe its 1080 p prores.. thats quick and easy to use .. and they are right for some people that is exactly what they want

and some people want 5k and 120 fps etc...

and some want it all... <--- me .. :devil:

 

[Mike Gross]

So Arri has resigned Alexa to be a competitor of the Sony F35 and not Epic? That makes more sense,

It does to me, they still have film cameras they need to sell which will compete with Epic. Alexa can't cannibalize their own film camera sales.
If that's their strategy then maybe they should have spun the digital camera division off so they wouldn't have an internal conflict.

 

[Mike Gross]

Jim i have to agree with you. When I visited the ARRI booth at NAB this year one of the employees there that I have known for years told me they did not approve of the way they were presenting themselves. For the people that have been there for a very long time and created the soul of ARRI, it is hard for them to see the company turn into what it has become.

I overheard one of the ARRI engineers say the sales guys shouldn't be promising features that weren't planned yet.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

What I don't understand is the new marketing approach of Arri.

Jim

Totally agree.

It looks to me as a tricky game that were employed in some of the historical soccer games of the last century.

The famous example for that was how Diego Maradona hit the goal using hand (later named "Hand of God" goal) "hidden" in his big curly hair when

"England were defeated in the quarter-final by Argentina with a brace of goals from Diego Maradona; the infamous "Hand of God" goal,

and the "Goal of the Century" he scored five minutes later (*49)."

LINK>>>

Not without a reason that the winning team at this freshly Alexa advertising movie wears Argentinian National Soccer Team shirts.

World Cup Alexa Short

Arri desperately wants to win this digital camera game BUT (!!!???)...

But RED is aware of it and ready to fight just because it already had winning digital camera (RED ONE more than 7000 sold in three years),

right now has RED1-MX that can very easy compete with Alexa and pretty soon coming extraordinary EPIC that is hard to beat digital still and cinema camera from anybody in the next 5-10 years.

So in that case World Cup Alexa Short it looks to me as a big ARRI dream movie.

Times have changed dramatically in the past three years for any of digital cinema camera makers.

 

[Phil Jordan]

I dont believe they missed the boat they chose to go a different route based on their educated opinion of what they believe their targeted industry would want at this time.

They believe its 1080 p prores.. thats quick and easy to use .. and they are right for some people that is exactly what they want

and some people want 5k and 120 fps etc...

and some want it all... <--- me .. :devil:

The bizarre thing is that Apple seems to be abandoning their pro apps division including FCP. Arri committing to Prores at the worst possible time is interesting to say the least.

 

[Wendy Woods]

I overheard one of the ARRI engineers say the sales guys shouldn't be promising features that weren't planned yet.

It sounds like a bit of a mutiny going on over there :smash:

 

[Mike Gross]

The bizarre thing is that Apple seems to be abandoning their pro apps division including FCP. Arri committing to Prores at the worst possible time is interesting to say the least.

As a great TV show camera, alexa would have made more sense to deliver native dnxhd mxfs. Prores is ok for some markets but most shows are still avid. The MC5 quicktime support is too clumsy and slow to be useful compared to dnxhd so we'd have to transcode anyway.

 

[chrislancaster]

The bizarre thing is that Apple seems to be abandoning their pro apps division including FCP. Arri committing to Prores at the worst possible time is interesting to say the least.

maybe they want to obsolete their product ??

sounds strange but they have a trade in program like RED is doing now

so they can urge those Alexa users to buy the better camera next year with ARRIRAW 4k (this is only a guess )

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

But it is still easy to love Arri. They still employ some of the best engineers.

The thing isn't that Arri is doing "this" or Arri isn't doing "that", but that Jim jumped on a new wagon, hit the pedal though the floor, and now RED is reaching exit velocity.

Arri may be in the middle of a deep change, but that doesn't vanish what they've achieved before, or their potential to achieve new things that boil blood some time in the future.

Instead of dumping on Arri, let's focus that energy on educating unsuspecting producers and clients so they can fully embrace this new company called RED, a company overflowing with talent and out-of-the-box-thinking, and making tools we love so gosh darn mucho.

BTW, Jim, please, try to get a few Tattoos over to South Africa! <3

 

[Scott France]

I think ARRI should of just created a new company and changed it's name to something else to go along with this new marketing strategy. It is rather embarrassing to watch the disfunction going on associated with a company that has been so solid for the last 50 years.

But I am not going to give up yet. ARRI makes the best follow focus in my opinion and I am excited to see what they come up with next, they are due out for a new one soon. Arri will not get my camera money, but they will get my money for a new FF-6 !!

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

Color science is fundamentally based on a proper WB setting. With RAW, you can change that. Baked is... not so much.

Jim

If you accurately characterize the sensor. You design all the analog gain circuitry and you store the WB as metadata in addition to the gained RAW image couldn't you de-gain the image in post back to native? They should know exactly what their analog WB (if they do apply an analog WB) is doing to the image.

As long as the ArriRAW files record what WB was applied to the RAW image they could simply adjust their code to compensate.

I know you don't just store R G and B RAW files in REDCode. You prep the data to be most efficiently stored. You would lose dynamic range up front with analog gain, but it shouldn't flummox the color should it?

 

[Wendy Woods]

But I am not going to give up yet. ARRI makes the best follow focus in my opinion and I am excited to see what they come up with next, they are due out for a new one soon. Arri will not get my camera money, but they will get my money for a new FF-6 !!

Hate to break it to you Scott, but the designers of the follow focus that you love so much have recently left ARRI and are over at Oconnor now making follow focuses.

 

[Scott France]

Hate to break it to you Scott, but the designers of the follow focus that you love so much have recently left ARRI and are over at Oconnor now making follow focuses.

Oh shit.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

If you accurately characterize the sensor. You design all the analog gain circuitry and you store the WB as metadata in addition to the gained RAW image couldn't you de-gain the image in post back to native? They should know exactly what their analog WB (if they do apply an analog WB) is doing to the image.

Assuming that is possible, why would you apply two adjustments that cancel each other? All you get is rounding errors out of it. And what if the WB brings one of the individual RGB values of a pixel to "0", or "255"?

There is no beating RAW for quality... trying to argue that makes no logic. For speed I can see ProRes, and RED is not stopping at h.264 module. They might have to keep some fireworks for release ya kno?

 

[Graeme Nattress]

Just a little note, Alexa's sensor is 3.5k, which is scaled to 2k. Significant if you're comparing to Epic's sensor pixel count.

But .5k is used for look-around and is not available for RAW recording or for scaling.

Graeme

 

[Michael Hastings]

Clearly thre is a difference between RedCode and uncompressed RAW. But I don't think RED has ever hidden that, and instead has focused on retaining the benefits of RAW processing, while at the same time making the datarate managable.

To say that is either an oxymoron or a marketing gimmick is a bit much, IMO.

-sc

I never said it was a "gimmick" I said that (unless mathematically lossless) by strict definition compressed is not raw. I also very clearly stated that I believe it was not only an acceptable but a USEFUL marketing TERM. Twisting that into I said it was a "gimmick" is exactly the kind of misrepresentation that disturbs me on this thread/forum. And further:

I'll reiterate; I have to assume that Alexa is essentially set. A co like Arri isn't likely to rewrite ArriRaw a few weeks before the camera hits the market. But those are just my instincts.

snip
Most of the talent that made ARRI have left the company. People like Jim Elias, Eric Johnston and many others, and I know many more that are soon to leave.

So Arri's digital camera can't be firmware updated like a RED? and their engineers can't add to or modify there raw scheme as RED has done?

And I have to assume that most of the talent that "made" a 90 year old company like ARRI are dead. Obviously it is a company in transition and it's somewhat useful to know if there is a brain drain happening, but in truth the mechanical engineering required for film cameras is completely different from the software and electronic engineering of these cameras moving forward.

It just seems that this is degenerating into an us vs. them somewhat cheapshot/piling on based on very limited information instead of professional discussion and analysis.

Another example,

The bizarre thing is that Apple seems to be abandoning their pro apps division including FCP. Arri committing to Prores at the worst possible time is interesting to say the least.

It seems to me that given Apple's penchant and aptitude for secrecy, it is doubtful that you have ANY real information or insight as to what they are doing with the pro apps - and this is just FUD.

People are frustrated at a lack of recent substantial upgrades and it seems to be hip to say that Apple only wants to do iSTUFF.

But in reality it is just as likely that Apple is expanding their commitment to FCS as it is they are abandoning it. It has been clear for several years that one of their goals was to rewrite FCS to take advantage of 64bit snow leopard technology and possibly at the same time integrate the various components more tightly. The massive influx of cash generated by iphone sales means not only could they dedicate MORE resources to FCS but they also don't need the cash flow from an upgrade so they can take their time to do everything they want to and get it right. Even if FCS wasn't very profitable, working in the motion picture arena has tremendous cachet - so doesn't make sense to abandon.

RED1 was a very good camera, Epic looks like it will be a GREAT camera. RED doesn't need bulls..t to move it forward or compete.

 

[Jim Elias]

Oh shit.

It's flattering to be mentioned as if we were some big movers and shakers at Arri, but the accessory business was actually always considered to be one of the minor adjuncts to the camera business there. I'm guessing that we became well-known here on this forum because AKS was an area that many rank-and-file Red users were and continue to be interested in, but our moving on shouldn't be taken as any sign for how the Arri group as a whole is doing. A lot of those talented engineers that made Arri what it is are still there doing their things.

(That said, you should definitely look over at the accessory forum and the threads regarding what we're doing for OConnor.) Thread hijack concluded... Over and out :smile5:

 

[Graeme Nattress]

What seems to have escaped everyone here is that the Red1 basically has a BAKED IN WB of 5000K. That's what's native to the sensor right? So that effectively becomes the "baked in" WB for the camera.

For years now, when shooting film, alot of folks have not used an 85 filter because it can effectively be corrected for in post, without problems.

You still need to shoot a grey card and color chart regardless of whatever you shoot Film, RAW, 444, 422, 420, 411 or whatever. So I'm not seeing any issue in Arri's methodology. Compressing the footage is much more of a concern to me than having to set the WB onset.

The native white balance of a silicon based sensor is what it is. All silicon sensors, be they CCD or CMOS have similarly daylight balance unless they alter that via optical filtration or via analogue gains.

The issue of altering sensor white balance via gain is that any increase in gain forces premature clipping on that channel, which is un-recoverable afterwards. Compression, even lossy compression, does not intentionally throw away dynamic range that can't be recovered afterwards. That's the difference.

Compression is a benefit, not a drawback. It makes cameras practical. Currently the RED One data rate is around that of uncompressed standard definition video. Are you seriously telling me that uncompressed standard def would make a better picture? Of course not! That's because the compression is good and by applying it to a higher resolution raw image we gain efficiencies and the overall result comes out better.

Graeme

 

[Damien Molineaux]

The Alexa will be a great tv camera for sure but I was very disappointed they didn't do a 4k camera also. It's a great camera but in 6 months to a year when there are thousands of epics shooting 5k, I wouldn't want to be trying to pay off an Alexa.

Let's not forget, it is not because Arri is releasing the Alexa this year, they don't have something else in the works. I seem to recall having heard/read somewhere they were working on a digital back for one of their film cameras, somewaht like what Aaton is doing with the Penelope.

I may be mistaken, but in any case, who knows what Arri is up to besides the Alexa. I still think the Alexa will be a great camera. Having on-board Pro-Res is a great option. They said the SxS module, which I believe includes the ProRes compression was removeable and could at a later time be replaced with another module to allow for updates according to compression and recording medium evolutions.

Personaly, I'm keeping my Red One and getting an Epic.

Cheers,
Damien

 

[Scott Crawley]

So Arri's digital camera can't be firmware updated like a RED? and their engineers can't add to or modify there raw scheme as RED has done?

I think it is less a question of whether or not they can, but if they will. I certainly don't know the answer to either question. Before Red came along with their broad public beta program called Red One, such a thing would be an extreme rarity, reserved for fixes rather than enhancements. I acknowlege that the landscape has changed as a result, but I make no assumptions that this practice will become a trend.

There are a lot of risks involved in a firmware update. The potential negative impact on reputation and finances far outweighs the benefit to the company. It is a better choice to release a new model. For this reason I don't expect to see a lot of firmware updates from Arri, if any, and fewer from Red going forward.