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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Arri Alexa and Mysterium-X...

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Gavin Greenwalt said:
Then again they have a dual-gain system on the Alexa, so they might see an advantage over existing gain systems by baking in the wb.
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Who knows? The proof is in the pudding! Until we can get an answer on what the Alexa is doing, as it's not the same camera as the D21, we just don't know.

Graeme
 
Jeff Coatney said:
I think what we're hearing is not people already making up their minds that its bad, but rather a desire to have some straight answers about what Arri is doing to give the end user an image.
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Are you really suggesting that Arri is going to hide this information permanently? Should they really be required to make an immediate answer to you on a competitor's website? I realize they are getting some free publicity over here but it wasn't Arri that started this thread.

Jeff Coatney said:
The idea that Arri should somehow be exempted from this trial by fire is what I find surprising and telling.
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It's interesting that you use that idiom "trial by fire" although I'm not sure you mean what it actually refers to. "Trial by fire" was a bad thing - it meant a trial where guilt or innocence was NOT judged by the facts but by whether the accused could survive burning or drowning or some other unrelated trial.

Jeff Coatney said:
This is exactly what I understand RAW to be. Compressed, yes. Baking in image processing, no.
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Jeff: You made a lot of good points in the post I quoted here, but I take exception to this. Other than MATHEMATICALLY LOSSLESS compression, once you decide to discard some of the information you are almost by definition NOT providing the RAW sensor data and "Compressed RAW" is an oxymoron. I do think it is a useful marketing term because it indicates that the compression takes place before the debayering and there isn't a lot of confusion among those of us that are following it. I think RED has proven that this can be a successful compromise, but at this point it seems that everyone is messing with the TRUE RAW and has debased the term to the point where you have to explore more deeply.

It is a bit like when the consumer camcorder people started slapping DIGITAL on their Hi8 and SVHS camcorders once they went to digital signal processing in the camera section but continued to record in analog - it made the label more confusing and virtually worthless in that market once there were true digital recording Digital8 and DV camcorders which came shortly after.


David Mullen ASC said:
If specs on paper were all that mattered, then most people would stay away from Redcode's 10:1 compression -- but it WORKS, that's what matters. So I don't see why everyone wants to take the high road in regards to one aspect and be so accepting of some other aspect. If Red only allowed uncompressed RAW recording, then at least they could claim to be taking the highest road possible, but instead, they've chosen to be PRACTICAL and use compression wisely -- and we judge how successful they are by the results. Which is how we should judge everything.
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Exactly.
 
Okay, Let me try and some this up. someone at some point saw something kinda interesting about the Alexa... that it may have a baked in White Balance. Either out of ridicule, Spite or just plain old curiosity they posted it on here... Michael has been very kind and answered many many questions on the camera in this very thread... some people like me are still wanting to know the WB question, not out of looking for a flaw, but general curiosity about what that does to the workflows i am used too, Not that those workflows can't change, just that it would mean they are different. Thats OKAY!

Since then there has been a heated discussion telling people defending ARRI that we want an answer... some of us cause we would like to know, and as all forums go... some because they want to deride.

Meanwhile the guys defending ARRI, are telling other people on here that we are being unfair, biased, rude, and down right militant. Which, sadly, for some is true.

So in an effort to quell the storm just a bit, lets try not argue, toss names, ridicule processes that we have yet to witness, or use a " but he said she said" type dialogue.

in plain simplicity. No malice. No Red Fanboyism. No ARRI apoligistism. No one method is better than another vitriol:

Michael, When you return, Would you please tell us whether or not the Alexa bakes the white balance into the ARRIRAW format and, if it does, what advantages did ARRI see in going this route?

Thank you so much for trying to be so helpful. I personally apologize if I came across as attacking... text unfortunately does not convey voice tone or intent very well. I know many on here would like to know the answer for purely professional reasons. I hope you have a great day,

Ian Laurie
a Red Owner who is genuinely curious.

P.S. Did that about some it up everyone? please don't eat me!!!!! :)
 
Gavin Greenwalt said:
Then again they have a dual-gain system on the Alexa, so they might see an advantage over existing gain systems by baking in the wb.
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Is there any info about kinks and discontinuities with the dual gain architecture. There was some talk at NAB about seeing this on gradients which was supposedly where the gain channels were combined.

Question for the brains:
What happens if you bake in WB for Tungsten when you're shooting under mixed lights or daylight?
 
Even though it is fun to have a metadata-only WB so I can not worry about it, I generally have a pretty good idea of what the white balance should be i.e. if I truly want white to be white under a few different light sources I can hit the auto white on the camera aimed at a white card. And if I want to maintain the golden hour glow in the late afternoon, I know I need to manually set it at 5800 (or a little warmer or colder if I want to mute it or accentuate it a bit.) Even underwater I pretty much know I am going to set it at 9000 or even higher (a dive or two with a particular camera will give me a pretty good idea how far I can push it).

So, Just to stir the pot a bit ;-).

We've already stated that setting a white balance point is the first step in processing RED footage. If we find out that Alexa does bake in the white balance setting, HOW BIG OF AN ISSUE IS THAT?
 
What about the positives to each system?

Both of which have not been "officially" released to the public.

Cool things about EPIC:
-modular lightweight to full on
-5K
-Stills and motion
-touch focus system
-very affordable
-REDCODE RAW
-h.264 proxy support
-wireless control
-Full Quality 1080P output
-125FPS@5K


Cool things about ALEXA
-Prores module that records 1080P
-ARRIRAW to a variety of media
-Double exposes each frame (not exactly) to achieve high dynamic range
-Autoblack balance on every frame
-Optical or electronic viewfinder
-Free Handle

I think these companies are going to be pushing at each other for a while... :)
 
I love Arri, but I am aggravated and embarrassed for them that they again have
erroneously referred to Dynamic Range as Exposure Latitude in their new
Digital Flip Book thing.

see
p.44
http://www.arri.com/alexa/
:nopity::nopity:
 
The technical discussion is very interesting and its great to see all these developments in action.

Question for the RED folks from the business point of view -- has any of this changed the assessment Jim had posted a while back stating that due to the economy and demand being low, there was no reason for RED to rush the EPIC/Scarlet's into production? Is that still the current assessment or is working overtime back in vogue at RED? ;)

Apologies if this was already addressed elsewhere or a while ago. Thanks.
 
I notice in their literature they refer to an electronic global shutter from I think 5 deg to 359 deg (or close). Is that just to be helpful for film users to understand what is possible?

I'd also be interested in their read/reset rate as well to make comparisons. The 5ms is pretty amazing and something I think is a huge plus on the EPIC compared to currently available cameras.
 
Michael Hastings said:
...SNIP...

Jeff: You made a lot of good points in the post I quoted here, but I take exception to this. Other than MATHEMATICALLY LOSSLESS compression, once you decide to discard some of the information you are almost by definition NOT providing the RAW sensor data and "Compressed RAW" is an oxymoron. I do think it is a useful marketing term because it indicates that the compression takes place before the debayering and there isn't a lot of confusion among those of us that are following it. I think RED has proven that this can be a successful compromise, but at this point it seems that everyone is messing with the TRUE RAW and has debased the term to the point where you have to explore more deeply.


...SNIP...
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I don't think it's an oxymoron, for several reasons:

1) RedCode has all along called out explicitly what portion of the RAW sensor data has been modified: it is spatially compressed via wavelet encoding (at a variety of datarates in order to allow hopefully 'visually lossless' reconstruction of the original image).

2) RedCode preserves the ability to not bake in white point, but supplies this via meta data

3) RedCode supplies metadata about color space transformation, rather than applying it in-camera, again not baking it in, but allowing for devlopment later

4) RedCode is indeed the sensor values without any gain, and thus potential clipping, already applied, either in the analog or digital domains.

5) Any improvements in debayering and/or color processing can be applied to existing RedCode data, providing improvements even to footage shot with previous builds


Clearly thre is a difference between RedCode and uncompressed RAW. But I don't think RED has ever hidden that, and instead has focused on retaining the benefits of RAW processing, while at the same time making the datarate managable.

To say that is either an oxymoron or a marketing gimmick is a bit much, IMO.

-sc
 
Nikhil Kamkolkar said:
The technical discussion is very interesting and its great to see all these developments in action.

Question for the RED folks from the business point of view -- has any of this changed the assessment Jim had posted a while back stating that due to the economy and demand being low, there was no reason for RED to rush the EPIC/Scarlet's into production? Is that still the current assessment or is working overtime back in vogue at RED? ;)

Apologies if this was already addressed elsewhere or a while ago. Thanks.
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Difficult project, many surprises, working 24/7 but late (as usual). Not going to ship until we are ready... no matter how much people complain.

Jim
 
Jannard said:
Difficult project, many surprises, working 24/7 but late (as usual). Not going to ship until we are ready... no matter how much people complain.

Jim
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The complaining does get really old, I want one (or two) just as much as everyone else. But I'd much rather wait and have the best possible camera! :)
 
Nikhil Kamkolkar said:
The technical discussion is very interesting and its great to see all these developments in action.

Question for the RED folks from the business point of view -- has any of this changed the assessment Jim had posted a while back stating that due to the economy and demand being low, there was no reason for RED to rush the EPIC/Scarlet's into production? Is that still the current assessment or is working overtime back in vogue at RED? ;)

Apologies if this was already addressed elsewhere or a while ago. Thanks.
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www.drudgereport.com - talking about depressing world market.

As a feature film producer who finds most of this discussion WAY over my head. All that matters is getting beautiful images on the big screen. People accuse RED of marketing hype?

That Alexa brochure is so UN-ARRI and hyperbolic, it was shocking.

No insult intended. All I want to see is an Alexa shot film on the big screen
I seriously doubt it will be DTE prores to film.

Build 15 looks pretty damn good to me. Especially if David Mullen shot it.

What exactly is the point of this 1300+ post i.e. 130+ page thread again?
 
What seems to have escaped everyone here is that the Red1 basically has a BAKED IN WB of 5000K. That's what's native to the sensor right? So that effectively becomes the "baked in" WB for the camera.

For years now, when shooting film, alot of folks have not used an 85 filter because it can effectively be corrected for in post, without problems.

You still need to shoot a grey card and color chart regardless of whatever you shoot Film, RAW, 444, 422, 420, 411 or whatever. So I'm not seeing any issue in Arri's methodology. Compressing the footage is much more of a concern to me than having to set the WB onset.
 
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