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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Arri Alexa and Mysterium-X...

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"GlueTools:

The ARRIRAW Toolkit allows MacOSX users to work with these ".ari" files natively in Final Cut Studio and any Quicktime enabled application.

ARRI's color processing math has also been incorporated to provide user adjustable ASA and Color Temperature settings."

LINK>>>

"GlueTools:

Hi Everyone..

We are proud to finally release v1.0 of the ARRIRAW Toolkit for Final Cut Studio.

This product provides native ".ari" file support for MacOSX, Final Cut Studio and just about any QuickTime enabled application

We have included importer plugins for Final Cut Pro, and added all of the expected plugins for MacOSX 10.5 and QuickTime 7.5.

- User Selectable ASA and White Point."

LINK>>>
 
Grady Wilson said:
I would like to know this as well and it feels a little bit like you keep dodging the question?
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It does feel like Michael is dodging the question and I don't understand why because it is what it is. Just confirm one way or the other please.
 
Phil and Jim and Grady, the answer is pretty obvious if Mitch is dodging the question, the White Balance is indeed baked in; which is pretty crummy considering they keep touting this not-really-raw ARRI RAW format. Which again is not surprising to me now that ARRI has resorted to back alley marketing tactics. I really hope this change of face ARRI has developed is temporary.
 
Peter Rollins said:
Phil and Jim and Grady, the answer is pretty obvious if Mitch is dodging the question, the White Balance is indeed baked in; which is pretty crummy considering they keep touting this not-really-raw ARRI RAW format. Which again is not surprising to me now that ARRI has resorted to back alley marketing tactics. I really hope this change of face ARRI has developed is temporary.
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You mean like them advertising that 2K has more resolution than 5K?
 
M Most said:
The file is not 2K. The frames are 3072x1728. The conversion software creates a 2K RGB frame from that, although as with Red, there's technically nothing to prevent one from interpolating the "3K" RAW data into a "3K" RGB image. Arri, however, has chosen to create a "standard" image size from it.
Click to expand...

If you're interpolating to go from 3k to 3k, then going from 3k to 2k (or likewise 2880 to 1920) is also the same as your chroma is "interpolated" up from 1440x810 to 1920x1080. For green you're interpolating from 1440x1620.


M Most said:
ProRes is ProRes, an RGB format, and is recorded as 1920x1080 HD. Arri RAW is recorded as uncompressed frames on a recorder that is capable of doing that, which at the moment includes Codex and S.two. They are fed from the dual HD-SDI outputs in a format called T-Link, which uses the dual link HD-SDI as a transport.
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Prores 422HQ is YCbCr.
Prores 4444 is YCbCr or RGB with an alpha channel (or not)
 
Michael Bravin said:
Yes you can record ARRIRAW AND ProRes at the same time. The DTE feature of ALEXA supposes that one possible workflow would be to use the ProRes as a proxy with the DP's "look" applied to go directly to editorial while maintaining the ARRIRAW as the "exposed negative".
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Why no built in raw recorder?
IMHO, this was a big oversight as there's no official ARRI supported solution so as a rental customer we have to deal with a mess of third party recorders and no consistent/solid workflow that's expected of ARRI.

I've used s-two and codex before and they're ok but hugely overpriced and more costly/cumbersome to use as now there's more recorders to be trained on and support for alexa.

I'm also curious about the white balance.
 
The answer lies in the name: ARRIRAW. If it were truly "RAW", it would be called "RAW". I asked this question of the Arri representative at the SuperMeet at the Rio: "What's Arri Raw?"

The answer was: "It's Arri's version of RAW". So while Red has RAW, Arri has a "version" of RAW (Which I Read as: Kinda-like RAW or RAW-ish).
 
Jeff Coatney said:
The answer lies in the name: ARRIRAW. If it were truly "RAW", it would be called "RAW". I asked this question of the Arri representative at the SuperMeet at the Rio: "What's Arri Raw?"

The answer was: "It's Arri's version of RAW". So while Red has RAW, Arri has a "version" of RAW (Which I Read as: Kinda-like RAW or RAW-ish).
Click to expand...

REDCODE is Red's version of RAW as well. I can't comment on which one works best as I have no experience with ARRIRAW, but REDCODE is amazing.

Some of the comments regarding ARRIRAW is worrying though (suggestions that it is more like a high bitrate video codec than RAW), but I will wait for confirmation.
 
REDCODE is indeed our RAW and we're pretty open about answering basic questions about it:

Is REDCODE compressed - yes, using a 12bit wavelet based codec.
Is ISO burned in to the REDCODE - no.
Is White Balance burned in - no.

Graeme
 
David Mullen ASC said:
I'm not an engineer, but I would guess that the striped approach benefits from its simplicity. Remember, the Genesis and F35 have to convert the filter pattern at full resolution in real time for recording -- the Red only does a partial debayering in real time at 720P for monitoring only.

The ARRI D20/21 does do full debayering in real time, but some people have commented that working from ARRIRAW and doing the debayering in post looks even better.

This suggests that doing real-time debayering at the highest possible quality level in-camera is still pushing the cutting edge of camera processing speed, etc. The Red doesn't do it, and I don't think the Dalsa did, can't say if the Phantom debayers to 1080P at full resolution in real time. Only the ARRI D20/21 does as far as I know (and now, the ARRI Alexa.)

Remember the whole point of the Genesis was to get a 4:4:4 1080P signal from a single sensor to be recorded to SR tape in real time -- at the time when most HD cameras used three sensors for RGB. So the single sensor had to be able to deliver RGB at full 1080P resolution "live" in-camera (up to 50 fps); a simpler pattern made this possible, at least with the technology available at the time.
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Oh indeed the striped process benefits from simplicity - you basically have to "do nothing" and it's hard to get simpler than that! Unfortunately, it's also "too simple" leaving chroma moire in the image because no process is done to account for the fact that the three channels, R,G,B are not in spatial alignment.

I understand why the Genesis/F35 work the way they do, but if the goal is for 4:4:4 they indeed get a unique RGB triple for each pixel, however, on fine detail it's immediately obvious that the RGB channels are not properly aligned thus, in my mind, somewhat diminishing the 4:4:4 benefit. Similarly, the high amount of vertical luma aliasing means that you're not recording an utterly pristine image.


The in-camera demosaic in the RED One is full (and you can see that in the 1:1 view mode) if basic, and is designed for monitoring and playback purposes only.

In DSMC line cameras, there is a full on demosaic.

The stripe approach is flawed because of the demand for 1080p to be nice and sharp, without a similar demand to minimize aliasing and chroma moire. The OLPF would have to be much stronger to remove those artifacts, and hence they'd get a rather blurry 1080p, or they'd have to go to many more pixels on the sensor, and some downsampling process to generate the 1080p.

Graeme
 
Sorry not to be updated of the latest news, but could someone could resume me the situation about the Epic availability for customer who don't own a RED ?

Of what i understood, everything is still vague about Scarlet at this time but hopefully we should learn more in mid May, am i correct?

Here's we were more impressed by the quality of ArriD21 footage than the Red one footage until today. Now i know Red is very dynamic and im confident to believe the color and dynamic captures by the new sensor will be much better.. My question is what are we going to see some great footage from the Epic in a real production context?

Hope some of you will help me and probably few more people to see where we are now :)

Many thanks,

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Vincent Thomas
VFX supervisor / Photograph / Author & Director
_______________________________________
www.stranger-than-paradise.book.fr
http://www.linkedin.com/in/vincentthomas
 
Vincent Thomas said:
Here's we were more impressed by the quality of ArriD21 footage than the Red one footage until today. Now i know Red is very dynamic and im confident to believe the color and dynamic captures by the new sensor will be much better.. My question is what are we going to see some great footage from the Epic in a real production context?
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In a sense, there's already productions utilizing a lot of the new M-X chip's strengths with Red One M-X cameras. That and the new color science, FLUT, metering, etc. are all giving a glimpse into the future of RED and it has been a great preview of Epic. Obviously, there are even more benefits to come with Epic itself (frame rates, form factor, 5K, less compression, modular, etc.).
 
Graeme Nattress said:
Oh indeed the striped process benefits from simplicity - you basically have to "do nothing" and it's hard to get simpler than that! Unfortunately, it's also "too simple" leaving chroma moire in the image because no process is done to account for the fact that the three channels, R,G,B are not in spatial alignment.

I understand why the Genesis/F35 work the way they do, but if the goal is for 4:4:4 they indeed get a unique RGB triple for each pixel, however, on fine detail it's immediately obvious that the RGB channels are not properly aligned thus, in my mind, somewhat diminishing the 4:4:4 benefit. Similarly, the high amount of vertical luma aliasing means that you're not recording an utterly pristine image.


...SNIP...

Graeme
Click to expand...

Graeme, I've heard you state before the issue with the non-cosited pixels and the resulting moire issues.

But I had always assumed that that this meant that the arrangement led to a sub-standard debayer for the striped image sensors... that the alignment made it hard to interpolate the other color positions. But I assumed they did something with the data.

Are you saying that there is NO debayer/interpolation on the striped cams? They siomply take the individual R, G, & B pixels as they are, and treat them as the 3-channels as is? No mathematical transform on them at all?

Wow.

-sc
 
Peter Rollins said:
if Mitch is dodging the question
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We may both have greying beards, wear glasses, are balding a bit up top and do a lot of similar work for our respected companies, but Michael Bravin and I are in fact two separate human beings.

And in general I think he's been quite forthcoming, especially when he could be seen as "venturing into enemy territory" by answering Alexa questions on the REDuser forum. Generally not an unbiased audience.
 
Steven Caesare said:
Graeme, I've heard you state before the issue with the non-cosited pixels and the resulting moire issues.

But I had always assumed that that this meant that the arrangement led to a sub-standard debayer for the striped image sensors... that the alignment made it hard to interpolate the other color positions. But I assumed they did something with the data.

Are you saying that there is NO debayer/interpolation on the striped cams? They siomply take the individual R, G, & B pixels as they are, and treat them as the 3-channels as is? No mathematical transform on them at all?

Wow.

-sc
Click to expand...

A RGB stripe pattern colour filter array (CFA) is just a CFA like the Bayer Patterns is - just a different pattern!

On this forum, and I'm sure someone can dig it up, Panavision told us they did no processing to account for the lack of co-sitedness in the RGB stripe pattern. I was questioning that as I predicted it would lead to chroma moire unless a very strong OLPF was used. I'd heard reports of aliasing on the Genesis which, if true, would indicate not enough OLPF.

At that time, I had not seen proper measurements of a Genesis. However, now I have had conducted measurements of an F35 (which has the same sensor as the Genesis) and it does indeed show quite clearly that the RGB channels are not co-sited and no processing is done to try to bring them into alignment, and it does show the chroma moire, and strong luma aliasing. Indeed, it show pretty much what I predicted upon learning the CFA pattern and that no processing was done.

"Wow" indeed. I wonder if they thought nobody would notice?

Graeme
 
Mitch Gross said:
We may both have greying beards, wear glasses, are balding a bit up top and do a lot of similar work for our respected companies, but Michael Bravin and I are in fact two separate human beings.

And in general I think he's been quite forthcoming, especially when he could be seen as "venturing into enemy territory" by answering Alexa questions on the REDuser forum. Generally not an unbiased audience.
Click to expand...

Indeed you are individual people. I'm sure I've even seen you together, so unless you're like Clark Kent with an android duplicate for use at trade shows....

Graeme
 
Just a suggestion for a few of the vibrant posters ..., if you want Michael, (it's Michael not Mitch as was stated by one member*** Mitch beat me to the punch) to poke his head out and have an honest conversation, you might wan to put down the pitch forks and torches.

Yes ArriRaw, is Arris version of RAW. Redcode is Red's version. Different parties will argue for different classification requirements for "raw." They each have come up with their own. Lets actually look at them and get some solid answers and comparisons and make informed judgments shall we? I for one would love to hear more about the specs of ArriRAW. What is the accompanying metadata, is the WB baked in like before etc.

I find it fairly obvious by where I am posting this, where my bias lies. However my belief can only be truly validated by honest discussion and comparison.
 
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