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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Arri Alexa and Mysterium-X...

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CJ Roy said:
I think this is the attitude coming from post that many DP's find frustrating. And I've had many similar talks with post guys about color and resolution which showed a blatent disregard for the DP's intentions image-wise.

The thing I hope you'll have some consideration for is that the images you're viewing are someone else's work. It represents them and their reputation. You're not the only one viewing that offline, the clients, directors, producers, agency, studios, etc are as well. So what may be adequate to you, may not be adequate to the person who shot it and it may not be the representation that they prefer, within reason.

I just had a post house tell me the other day that it was perfectly fine if all the flesh tones were green. All because they're waiting on redline. That's just fucking crazy.
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Again, I would argue that R3D offers advantages in this area. If you want to do a quick "one-light", FLUT™ is truly a fantastic tool.

For those that need to see a full resolution debayer (which by the way is substantially higher quality than DNx), a Rocket is not a big investment. Anyone working at that level is used to leasing multi-hundred thousand dollar Avids, Quantels, etc. A $5k card shouldn't push them over the edge.

In my experience, the post world is doing everything they can to get up to speed on Red native. It's what an increasing number of clients are asking for.

I'm willing to agree to disagree on R3D vs. ProRes...

Cheers,
Tim
 
Tim Morten said:
Again, I would argue that R3D offers advantages in this area. If you want to do a quick "one-light", FLUT™™ is truly a fantastic tool.

For those that need to see a full resolution debayer (which by the way is substantially higher quality than DNx), a Rocket is not a big investment. Anyone working at that level is used to leasing multi-hundred thousand dollar Avids, Quantels, etc. A $5k card shouldn't push them over the edge.

In my experience, the post world is doing everything they can to get up to speed on Red native. It's what an increasing number of clients are asking for.

I'm willing to agree to disagree on R3D vs. ProRes...

Cheers,
Tim
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Thinking that requiring a post house to purchase a video card for every bay, that supports 1 camera, is an advantage seems like rather flawed rationale. That certainly would seem like a costly disadvantage.

I do agree that Flut and the other meta options are nice and they work great on set, and the LGG is awesome, but right now they're limited due to the limited support for it. (RMD/RSX/Redline/etc) The advantage is the same as the disadvantages, from being constantly updated with others not being able to keep up.
 
CJ Roy said:
Thinking that requiring a post house to purchase a video card for every bay, that supports 1 camera, is an advantage seems like rather flawed rationale. That certainly would seem like a costly disadvantage.

I do agree that FLUT™ and the other meta options are nice and they work great on set, and the LGG is awesome, but right now they're limited due to the limited support for it. (RMD/RSX/Redline/etc) The advantage is the same as the disadvantages, from being constantly updated with others not being able to keep up.
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Not to beat a dead horse, but "requiring" is debatable. There are perfectly viable workflows that do not need hardware assist. I also hear that the Mercury engine does a fantastic job on existing hardware.

Anyhow, I get it that you prefer ProRes - that's cool: to each their own. I believe that handling R3D will become commonplace at major post houses. If that doesn't happen, I'll buy you a beer and admit defeat :).

Peace,
Tim
 
Tim Morten said:
Anyhow, I get it that you prefer ProRes - that's cool: to each their own.
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I don't prefer ProRes, I think you're misinterpreting my opinion. I prefer simplicity.

Right now, R3D is anything but simple. I think that's fair to say and healthy alternatives are valid.
 
I think in the end, post houses will have to learn to catch up simply due to the fact that if they don't, they are gonna lose business to the post house that has been able to. More and more is shot on RED, more will be shot on EPIC. RED isn't holding back their plans as long as they can help it, and try to make the workflow and the tools as accessible as possible. It IS all business after all, and if a post house can't handle r3d's, or r3d's in volume, then you can take it to the next one.

It's not like there aren't a lot of post houses... And keep in mind post houses usually send out to do things their house can't and simply charge accordingly or take the hit on it cause they charge so much anyway. A lot of post houses don't every deck, card, cross conversion, down conversion, up conversion device known to man. Where there is a will, there will be a way. Acquisition changes faster than finishing, and that has been more of the case with digital. But it won't stop the wheels from turning, or people from shooting on whatever they want.
 
Tim Morten said:
Not to beat a dead horse, but "requiring" is debatable. There are perfectly viable workflows that do not need hardware assist. I also hear that the Mercury engine does a fantastic job on existing hardware.

Anyhow, I get it that you prefer ProRes - that's cool: to each their own. I believe that handling R3D will become commonplace at major post houses. If that doesn't happen, I'll buy you a beer and admit defeat :).

Peace,
Tim
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Love the flexibility of R3D for a final color grade. But as a Dp, giving the editor r3Ds that he can interpret any way he wants or happens upon for an offline edit is a nightmare. I want my dailies looking great- the way i intended. My job is on the line. There is no explanation or excuse for sub par dailies. Transcoding to an offline format with a look baked in while viewing a standardized output signal path ensures there is no mistaking the intention of my vision. Heck most editors cant even output a quicktime of the cut for viewing without jacking up the gamma. Lets all just go back to the R3D for a final conform and grade. No offense to editors out there but color should be the domain of the DP, director, and colorist.
 
Proxies

Proxies

O.K, I'll bite, If editorial's job is to establish the story's pacing, why does it matter what the specific color of the image he is working with looks like ?
 
Stuart English said:
O.K, I'll bite, If editorial's job is to establish the story's pacing, why does it matter what the specific color of the image he is working with looks like ?
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C'mon Stuart, Dailies and Editorial are a DP's calling card, I cant believe you ask this question... knowing DP's. Sure grading is where the final decision is made but everyone who hires the DP sees the dailies and the cut.
 
Dwight Tudor said:
A lossy codec is acceptable when you have the option to do uncompressed also.
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So what you are saying is, a lossy codec would otherwise not be acceptable but because it is packaged with uncompressed it is now acceptable to use the lossy that was before unacceptable. :wink5:

Ha. That thought was thunk too good.

How about Alexa is acceptable because it offers both?
That makes more sense.
 
Graeme Nattress said:
To me, the difference is in if there's a direct attach, or via umbilical cables. Not that I think such a distinction is the argument here - I see it more of a size / weight consideration than the actual means of attachment.

Graeme
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It's funny, the "House" 5D episode was done for shallow DoF and small camera size. Intimate shots and no cutting down walls and rebuilding of sets b/c the camera can get into tight spaces.

These are the exact same areas (among many others) where Epic and Scarlet will excel. As for the Alexa, it's rather heavy and large by comparision.
 
Stuart English said:
O.K, I'll bite, If editorial's job is to establish the story's pacing, why does it matter what the specific color of the image he is working with looks like ?
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The offline edit isn't just about pacing. It's about telling the story. That's why offline editors will cut in temp sound effects, especially for story points- so that you understand the story and feel whatever it is you're supposed to feel when watching the cut. The look of the picture is an integral part to how the story FEELS and plays. It's important to have the intended look on dailies as decisions are being made based on watching this material.
 
Zach Zoller said:
So what you are saying is, a lossy codec would otherwise not be acceptable but because it is packaged with uncompressed it is now acceptable to use the lossy that was before unacceptable. :wink5:

Ha. That thought was thunk too good.

How about Alexa is acceptable because it offers both?
That makes more sense.
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The point is that lossy may be acceptable in some/many cases but not all. An available and realistic option to do either is a very significant factor for some.

I'm probably not one of those since R1/epic has been/will be in my sweet spot in terms of price, mobility, resolution, etc.

I have never purchased or even rented an Arri camera, and I've known mike bravin for over twenty years but haven't bought anything from him since 1986. Not because they haven't been associated with great products, but because I don't work in those markets, as is the case for many redusers.

But to suggest that those who can genuinely use both compressed and full raw in their situations are somehow hypocritical for embracing the addition of a compressed option seems unfair.

P.S. Same with suggesting that the artist (the DP) whose whole job is to make great images is being difficult because they would like the working medium to look pretty close to what they intended.
 
Eric Haase said:
Love the flexibility of R3D for a final color grade. But as a Dp, giving the editor r3Ds that he can interpret any way he wants or happens upon for an offline edit is a nightmare. I want my dailies looking great- the way i intended. My job is on the line. There is no explanation or excuse for sub par dailies. Transcoding to an offline format with a look baked in while viewing a standardized output signal path ensures there is no mistaking the intention of my vision. Heck most editors cant even output a quicktime of the cut for viewing without jacking up the gamma. Lets all just go back to the R3D for a final conform and grade. No offense to editors out there but color should be the domain of the DP, director, and colorist.
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Simple: tell your editor not to mess with the metadata that you (the DP) or your colorist have already set up. Nothing to stop an editor from doing color in ProRes either, unless you tell him not to. Just because R3D has better lattitude for color doesn't mean your editor should be the one to use it.

Cheers,
Tim
 
Dwight Tudor said:
A lossy codec is acceptable when you have the option to do uncompressed also.
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To be clear. Our DTE recorder is a ProRes recorder with 2 of the choices to record from ALEXA 4222HQ at 220Mb/s and 4444 at 330Mb/s. The ARRIRAW out is uncompressed sensor data at 2K, the HDSDI, Dual 1.5G or 3 G are all uncompressed. We built Alexa to provide many choices, all supportive of standard post workflows, in use today.
 
Michael, if you could please answer a question that brought up by many thus far. Is the WB baked into the raw like the d21? Or is the ARRIRAW true RAW, and has nothing baked in?
 
Michael Bravin said:
C'mon Stuart, Dailies and Editorial are a DP's calling card, I cant believe you ask this question... knowing DP's. Sure grading is where the final decision is made but everyone who hires the DP sees the dailies and the cut.
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Agreed.

Good thing now is that one can actually do a quickgrade on-set, or when transcoding, without harming exposure, as was earlier the case with RED. B30 splves 90% of those issues.

So you can have best of both.

On another note Michael (just out of ignorance)
Can you record RAW and prores at the same time?
I guess yes...

And the baked WB is an issue - but I guess more so for us that have become used to not having it baked in.
An answer would be interesting, though.

Cheers!
 
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