Are red goal posts (under exposed) okay for a darker look?

[Lee M]

Very very new to the Red Dragon and filming in general. I am experimenting with lighting of a basement scene where I want it to appear dark. The left goal post seems to be above 50% but the image looks fine on the monitor. I have read that this is still a bad thing and I should avoid going into the red zone so if that is the case, what are some ways that I can get out of the red zone yet still maintain a dark basement feeling throughout the scene?

I am assuming that to get out of the red zone I would essentially need more light yet I don't want the scene to appear bright. Should I use more light with an ND filter or polorizer? More light with lower ISO (was told to try to keep it at 800)? More light with higher shutter speed? I would like to keep the aperture at T1.5.

Should I not be as concerned with how it looks on the LCD and more concerned with how it looks after color grading/correction (new to that as well).

I know this is a very newby question but figure this would be the best place to ask as Google wouldn't be too specific to the Red Dragon.

 

[Mark Phelan]

Have a look at these articles:

http://www.red.com/learn/red-101/exposure-with-red-cameras

http://www.red.com/learn/red-101/red-camera-exposure-tools

http://www.red.com/learn/red-101/exposure-false-color-zebra-tools

As a general rule, you want a "fat" histogram, i.e. the more information the better. Don't starve the sensor, give it as much information as you can. If it's not there, it's not there. In the early days the rule was ETTR – expose to the right, meaning don't starve the highlights. I still think this is a good rule to use even though sensors are better than ever. But some scenes are always going to be naturally dark, that's ok. But always try to give the sensor as much information as you can allowing you to make decisions in post. You can't work with something that doesn't exist.

 

[abreu-canedo]

Good advice above.

For dragon sensors and dark scenes, it's a balance of how much noise you are willing to either accept or deal with in post (Noise Reduction). It is also a balance of whatever you are going to crush into black can stay close to the noise floor of the sensor...but whatever you want to keep, try to raise it as far off of the noise floor as possible.

For such a look where I wanted clean images, I would pump a lot of light, dim practicals so they don't clip, and make sure the DR of the scene is like 3 or 4 stops below the maximum DR of the sensor. One trick is to light the scene with your Iris closed down, then open it back up when you are going to shoot. As long as nothing is clipping when you open the Iris back up, you have essentially made sure you have the desired contrast ratio while elevating the whole scene off of the noise floor. Then you can bring it all down selectively in post.

 

[Owen Rennie]

Post an R3D and you'll get some better advice. And remember to use your exposure tools. In "Raw" select exposure tool and see exactly what's clipping/ crushed. Also the video tool... others will explain it better (Phil) but use your tools, they are amazing. Same goes for focusing

 

[Matthew Quinn]

one of the most common mistakes for new red users is shooting dark. these cameras love light, and much easier to bring a darker look in post than trying to pull exposure from an under exposed image

 

[Nick Morrison]

If you are shooting a "dark" scene, consider doing what Christopher Probst does....and shoot at 320 (or lower).

This will force you to monitor "darker", and feed your sensor more light. Shooting at 320 or lower pushes your DR more into your shadows, and gives you a much cleaner image. Just watch your highlights, as you'll have much less headroom...and if they clip..they really DO clip.

On Helium the floor won't likely be 320, but instead looks like 800.

Hope this helps.

 

[Lee M]

Wow, every single response was amazing suggestions. Thank you all! I am still trying to figure out this whole DR thing, going to watch a few more videos. Finally learned what the goal post and ETTR meant earlier today. Read those 3 articles on red.com earlier and after I posted this thread found this through Google with even more advise. http://nofilmschool.com/boards/questions/how-light-dark-scene

I haven't experimented with ISO 320 as I was told by someone to just keep it at 800 but I will definitely give it a shot. Is the lower the ISO the better as long as the light can support it, even for indoor shots? I thought this at first but read something that there is a sweet spot and thought it was 800 for the Dragon.

What about increasing the shutter speed to 1/96 or 1/192 even? I will be using a Ronin and/or crane for this smooth scene and kind of like the look it gave while I was messing around testing all the way up to 1/5000 shutter. 1/500 seemed to be my sweet spot, would it be crazy to add some intense lighting and darken it up with a fast shutter? I've read multiple times that 1/48 is the shutter to use for 24FPS but just thinking outside the box.

 

[Nick Gardner]

Another trick is that if you have something in the frame that is bright as a reference, then you can get away with everything else being in the dark. A flashlight beam, a candle, one window or a single light bulb. If the shot has something bright and something dark, you accept the dark. If it's all dark it just gets muddy because you are trying to see stuff in what is essentially an underexposed shot.

Nick

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

I was explaining this very thing to someone the other day, it is a good trick

 

[Lee M]

Another trick is that if you have something in the frame that is bright as a reference, then you can get away with everything else being in the dark. A flashlight beam, a candle, one window or a single light bulb. If the shot has something bright and something dark, you accept the dark. If it's all dark it just gets muddy because you are trying to see stuff in what is essentially an underexposed shot.

Nick

I am trying to understand this. I would still want to keep everything between the goalposts right? I accept the dark as in the dark makes more sense to the viewer?

 

[Dan Kanes]

Following what Nick Morisson suggests above - fantastic.

If you have enouggillumination in the scene, and you have to stop down significantly to get the monitor feeling as moody as you want it, and it doesn't look dark enough try -1, to -2 FLUT to bring it down even more - this is a great non permanent way to set mood.

take a look at your histogram in Raw, and also use the exposure tool, anything purple or flickers purple will likely be too noisy to recover... should you decide you need to pick out detail from it.

There is no wrong way, but know that if you're in purple you won't be able to lift it and look "clean"

 

[Curtis boggs]

Good advice above.

For dragon sensors and dark scenes, it's a balance of how much noise you are willing to either accept or deal with in post (Noise Reduction). It is also a balance of whatever you are going to crush into black can stay close to the noise floor of the sensor...but whatever you want to keep, try to raise it as far off of the noise floor as possible.

For such a look where I wanted clean images, I would pump a lot of light, dim practicals so they don't clip, and make sure the DR of the scene is like 3 or 4 stops below the maximum DR of the sensor. One trick is to light the scene with your Iris closed down, then open it back up when you are going to shoot. As long as nothing is clipping when you open the Iris back up, you have essentially made sure you have the desired contrast ratio while elevating the whole scene off of the noise floor. Then you can bring it all down selectively in post.

This is fantastic advice. I haven't been a Red user for long
but this one thing is what turned my images from crap,, to not so much crap

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Lots of good information here. A couple of my simple thoughts to add...

If something is causing the goal post on the left to "light up" significantly then you will have two choices with that part of the image - either accept that it will have noise or plan on crushing it to black in post. And, be aware that the the goal posts are based on raw image data; they are not affected by ISO setting. Whereas, the histogram is affected by ISO so it will shift based on that. In general, I think it is a bad idea to exp[ose based on your monitor simply because it depends on monitor settings and ISO.

Personally, I love using the GioScope to evaluate my image; especially if I can alter the lighting to create a better image.

 

[Lee M]

I've been playing around with these suggestions and the lighting is getting better and better.

This is another newbie question but is it bad no matter what to get the goal posts? Like what if the subject is in the center of the image in focus and there is a darker wall behind with minimal lighting. Would the goal post reflect an average?

How can I set the red dragon to show me the goal posts based on a portion of the image, kind of like the focus assist but for exposure where I can just drag the square on the monitor to the part I want to check the exposure for.

 

[Björn Benckert]

How can I set the red dragon to show me the goal posts based on a portion of the image, kind of like the focus assist but for exposure where I can just drag the square on the monitor to the part I want to check the exposure for.

A zoom lens would work well for you, or take a few steps forward with your prime lens... The goal post represent number of the total pixels that are out of sensor range so you can judge on the the length of the pillar. So as an example if only half the image is out of range pillar is half full. But as I see it it´s better to strive to have enough fill so there is nothing falling on the floor of the sensor.

 

[Lee M]

I'd like to use a wider lens to still get the background background but a bit out of focus and darker. I want the whole scene to look dark. Is there a way to see if just the subject is properly exposed instead of zooming in on it or using a light meter. Like to tell the red to pick a spot in the frame to check exposure.

 

[Lee M]

Would using zebra and the exposure assist thing that makes underexposed stuff purple work ?

Is is it a big deal to under expose the background in a dark scene ?

 

[Björn Benckert]

I'd like to use a wider lens to still get the background background but a bit out of focus and darker. I want the whole scene to look dark. Is there a way to see if just the subject is properly exposed instead of zooming in on it or using a light meter. Like to tell the red to pick a spot in the frame to check exposure.

What i meannwith zoom lens is that you can kind of use it a spormeter. Zomm in on the dark areas and see your light values.


Strive to keep blacks above the sensor flor and you will have a cleaner image. You can crush the blacks down to if there is no room for the exposure change or if the light is not under your control. But strive not to.

 

[Sabovic Adis]

Ain't no "well lit" dark scenes. Ain't no bright darkness. :rofl:

Either use T-stop strong lenses or use light! And don't be so pushy in post...:biggrin:

 

[Daniel Reed]

NO, its better to expose properly and darken it in post.
This principle holds true for film based cinematography as well.