Are people doing "real" editing from the proxies?

[Scott Simmons]

As I work with footage and read lots of posts and stories about offlining RED projects I see mentions of editing QT proxies directly in FCP. I have footage from 4 different shoots and while I can drop them in a timeline and edit it is less than optimal. FCP always changes the sequence to a ProRes sequence but then I often lose the options for Unlimited RT. I can change the sequence to REDCODE and then work in the timeline but forget my AJA Kona being able to do anything with it. Performance always seems to take a hit with the proxies no matter what settings I use. While it is possible to use these proxies it seems to be anything other than just a few test edits really bog the system down and isn't optimal at all for a real job (which is coming around soon). This is a Mac Pro Octo with a lot of RAM so it's not a slow system problem.

Just looking for some discussion on real editing from RED proxies.....

 

[oldkentucky]

bump for this question. I'm also trying to do some editing with the proxies, but so far have run into all kinds of render/playback issues. There's so much footage to work with that I was hoping to avoid having to convert everything, but so far I can't get any transitions to render among other issues.

 

[Zach Hilton]

As I work with footage and read lots of posts and stories about offlining RED projects I see mentions of editing QT proxies directly in FCP. I have footage from 4 different shoots and while I can drop them in a timeline and edit it is less than optimal. FCP always changes the sequence to a ProRes sequence but then I often lose the options for Unlimited RT. I can change the sequence to REDCODE and then work in the timeline but forget my AJA Kona being able to do anything with it. Performance always seems to take a hit with the proxies no matter what settings I use. While it is possible to use these proxies it seems to be anything other than just a few test edits really bog the system down and isn't optimal at all for a real job (which is coming around soon). This is a Mac Pro Octo with a lot of RAM so it's not a slow system problem.

Just looking for some discussion on real editing from RED proxies.....

We did one project with the proxies, and yes, it is a pain (sort of) to edit with the proxies. As I've mentioned before, I'm more than willing to compromise on editing techniques and styles, etc... but the fact of the matter is, clients and others won't. The problem with proxies for any real project is usually you are under a time crunch and don't have time to fiddle with the settings, or wait for things to render. You can only have one active proxy on the timeline at a time without taking a hit to playback (at least on our 8 cores). And it does get pretty annoying when you drop frames constantly. All in all though, we ended up deciding that it would be better for the time being to convert all the footage to a codec that we usually use, edit that, then online using Iblooms script (of course we did some heavy testing before even considering it on a real project). The transcode from R3D to SD DV50 (which is what we chose) was about real time from Redcine. Not bad at all if you ask me. My business partner was also getting about real time as well transcoding from _P.mov proxies to 720p using Compressor (yes, it was scaling them, but honestly, it looked great. Especially for an offline edit) on another project. So in short, yes we tried proxy editing for real projects, but found it to be more of a hassle. To me, the proxies are more useful for doing batch exports via Compressor or any other program like that, or for spot checking footage on set, or doing quick little edits. Anything real, or that you care about, I'd suggest making your own offline clips to edit from. You'll be glad you did. All of this of course, is subject to change as programs and hardware improve. But for the time being, that is probably what we're going to be doing.

 

[Scott Simmons]

Thanks Strongbad .... I totally agree with that workflow after all the testing I've done. These proxies just don't cut it for me either for a real job with clients looking over your shoulder (or popping into the edit once a day). And they might not be made for that anyway though some people are selling them that way. I think at this point you have to build in the conversion time to your edit, that's the safest way to go. Now if only you didn't have to do the final conform by hand .........

 

[Zach Hilton]

Thanks Strongbad .... I totally agree with that workflow after all the testing I've done. These proxies just don't cut it for me either for a real job with clients looking over your shoulder (or popping into the edit once a day). And they might not be made for that anyway though some people are selling them that way. I think at this point you have to build in the conversion time to your edit, that's the safest way to go. Now if only you didn't have to do the final conform by hand .........

Oh man. I wish that were the case. It only took like 10 minutes for a 2 1/2 min spot but hey, that's 10 min I can use elsewhere. I really have high hopes for Ian's new script that hopefully should be released soon. Anyway, best of luck.

 

[Aneitz]

You can also burn in timecode with Compressor which is useful when you're going back to r3d for finishing. I wish it'd also burn the clip name.

 

[NateWeaver]

Editblog,

There are multiple discussions on this, but I'll boil it down:

1-Make sure your Offline RT quality is set to low

2-Turn off "Scrub High Quality" in the same pulldown tab

On a Intel 2.66 Quad w/Kona LHe set to 1080 23.98psf, and the timeline set to the auto settings for the given proxy, I get full framerate and VERY fast scrubbing. On _H proxies, no less.

You just have to have a couple things set "just so".

 

[Matthew Rogers]

The transcode from R3D to SD DV50 (which is what we chose) was about real time from Redcine. Not bad at all if you ask me. My business partner was also getting about real time as well transcoding from _P.mov proxies to 720p using Compressor (yes, it was scaling them, but honestly, it looked great. Especially for an offline edit) on another project.

So let me get this straight... You were outputting from RedCine in DV50 at 480P (SD Widescreen), correct? Because that could be a fairly good offline system... I just tried outputting in DV50 at 720P, but it was fairly slow in RedCine.

I will do some tests on my 8 Core 2.8 MacPro to see which system is the best. To me it makes the most sense to edit with either a proxy or offline, and then online instead of rendering EVERYTHING out to ProRes and editing straight from that.

Matthew

 

[Zach Hilton]

So let me get this straight... You were outputting from RedCine in DV50 at 480P (SD Widescreen), correct? Because that could be a fairly good offline system... I just tried outputting in DV50 at 720P, but it was fairly slow in RedCine.

I will do some tests on my 8 Core 2.8 MacPro to see which system is the best. To me it makes the most sense to edit with either a proxy or offline, and then online instead of rendering EVERYTHING out to ProRes and editing straight from that.

Matthew

Yeah. SD Widescreen, letterboxed, and 4x3. Done just three projects so far like that. And, you really can't beat near realtime if not realtime export. Essentially, it's no different than our old workflow of capturing tape (but we have all the benefits of 4k if we want/need). I don't really see the point of having an offline edit be HD. Well, I see the point, but to me it's not worth it. One project we actually onlined back to 1080p to the ProRes HQ codec (after DPX export than to color of course), and it looks absolutely amazing on a 1080p television.

Mind you, I am offlining in SD in various formats of SD, but ALL of them look far superior to any thing else I've seen.

 

[Matthew Rogers]

There are multiple discussions on this, but I'll boil it down:
1-Make sure your Offline RT quality is set to low
2-Turn off "Scrub High Quality" in the same pulldown tab
On a Intel 2.66 Quad w/Kona LHe set to 1080 23.98psf, and the timeline set to the auto settings for the given proxy, I get full framerate and VERY fast scrubbing. On _H proxies, no less.
You just have to have a couple things set "just so".

So are you saying that you took a "High" proxy, put it on a 1920x1080 timeline set to prores and you don't have to render? I just tried that with your first two steps, and then many different settings (prores & redcode, 2448x1024 & 1920x1080) but I couldn't get it so it doesn't need rendering. What setting do you have that you forgot to put in there1

Matthew

 

[Zach Hilton]

Oh, and if you haven't figured it out yet by reading or doing your own tests, the view quality has a HUGE difference on render speeds. I went from 2 fps to 5 then to 23-27. Also, if you do decide to do an SD offline, choose Standard as your Process in the output area. If not, you won't see realtime exports. And the quality difference is negligible for an offline.

 

[Zach Hilton]

Editblog,

There are multiple discussions on this, but I'll boil it down:

1-Make sure your Offline RT quality is set to low

2-Turn off "Scrub High Quality" in the same pulldown tab

On a Intel 2.66 Quad w/Kona LHe set to 1080 23.98psf, and the timeline set to the auto settings for the given proxy, I get full framerate and VERY fast scrubbing. On _H proxies, no less.

You just have to have a couple things set "just so".

How does that look on your broadcast monitor? Going through a Kona 3 I can't seem to get it to look as good as the SD offlines I made.

 

[Scott Simmons]

So are you saying that you took a "High" proxy, put it on a 1920x1080 timeline set to prores and you don't have to render? I just tried that with your first two steps, and then many different settings (prores & redcode, 2448x1024 & 1920x1080) but I couldn't get it so it doesn't need rendering. What setting do you have that you forgot to put in there1

Matthew

I agree with Matthew. I can't get what Nate is getting on a 3 gig Octo. When you have FCP auto adjust the timeline I lose all the options in the timeline pulldown tab. I can't figure out the rhyme or reason why it doesn't do that sometimes ..... but I can't get decent performance out of the QT refs. Maybe it's this batch of footage but it ain't happening!

 

[Dylan Reeve]

For what it's worth, I've been editing with proxies in Avid Xpress Pro. Once they're imported they are just like anything else. It works, but there are no clear and simple workflows out of Avid yet.

With FCP on our system, with a Decklink HD Extreme I can't get any realtime operation with RED proxies, but there are still options I haven't explored.

 

[NateWeaver]

Alright, since people are thinking I'm crazy...

Here's my settings:

Output out the Kona is definitely softer than "High" quality in the RT pulldown (which gives me abysmal framerates as well). It however is not horribly soft. Kinda looks like HVX200 footage, actually. It is very sharp when downconverted to SD using the Kona control panel.

BTW, I can get other Kona output settings in FCP to produce a moving output, but those others create slow scrubbing. It appears the output setting above creates the least work for FCP to actually pass to the Kona.

Again, scrubbing is very fast for me on a 8 drive RAID 5. On a slower drive, it is somewhat slower, but not a deal killer. Actually performing edits in the timeline is slower than the scrubbing behavior would suggest, but it's workable.

 

[Matthew Rogers]

Alright, since people are thinking I'm crazy...

Here's my settings:

Strangely enough, I tried it again this morning and now it plays back fine on my MacPro! FCP uses about 700% processor time (7 processors) but it works without dropping a frame.

Edit: However, I forgot to mention that playback is not "native." It has a orange bar over the clip which means that FCP is doing a on the fly render with RT effects. I was hoping that it would be native, but alas...

Matthew

 

[Scott Simmons]

For what it's worth, I've been editing with proxies in Avid Xpress Pro. Once they're imported they are just like anything else. It works, but there are no clear and simple workflows out of Avid yet.

With FCP on our system, with a Decklink HD Extreme I can't get any realtime operation with RED proxies, but there are still options I haven't explored.

This would make sense on Avid since it creates new media out of a Quicktime import. Does it retain proper timecode?

 

[Dustin Cross]

I have the same settings as Nate on my old Quad 2Ghz Mac Pro, 2GB ram, and stock video card, and I get realtime playback just fine. Quality drops, but I don't drop any frames and I am cutting 2k. I can even put a 3 way color corrector on and it doesn't need to render.

2k at low quality is more than good enough to edit. If I really need to check quality, I just turn on high quality scrubbing and there it is. HQ scrubbing off is better for working though.

Editing the QT proxies is awesome!


Mahalo,
Dusty

 

[Zach Hilton]

Nate, didn't think you were crazy. Just wanted to know how you were getting decent playback. With your settings it looks pretty good on the production monitor. I only have an SD one so I'm sure it looks even better on an HD one. Proxies are really sweet, and will get better. I haven't given up on them at all. I'm actually a supporter of them here, but the powers that be chose to go a different route for the time being. Thanks for your post.

 

[Scott Simmons]

I'm not far off from what Nate is getting either. It definitely likes things better when the Kona video out is turned off. Out of 3 test sequences only one seems to be dropping frames. I'm still not sure if I'd be comfortable doing an edit with client in the room from proxies.

The other interesting thing is that when I try to use the smallest proxies, 786x384 and under, the FCP timeline doesn't give the different quality options: