APS-C or not APS-C

[Christoffer Glans]

I've been trying to get my head around what to do. I'm trying to get a hold on budget lenses because I will never have the money to buy real PL cine optics.
So I've been looking at the new Sigma 18-35 1,4, I've been looking at the Sigma 35mm 1,4 (art), I've also looked at the Samyang 24mm T1,5 VDSLR and so on.

The first problem is that I kinda see where sensor technology is going, not only is it about 4K but looking at the Dragon sensor and the interest in IMAX, the sensor sizes start to increase making APS-C useless.
I see lenses as an investment for a long time and they need to hold for that. If I purchase something like the 18-35 1,8 Sigma lens it's made for APS-C so it will not work on larger sensor sizes. But if I buy the 35mm 1,4 it will.

Then there's the second issue, I don't know how these Samyang and Tokina VDSLR lenses hold up against better still-lenses made for still photography. Yes, you get the stepless aparture and follow focus friendly focus, but I will not get that if the glass is bad. Looking at the Samyang and Tokina solutions they are made for APS-C and they are better to work with.

So I'm at a problematic crossroad. Is it better to invest in full frame lenses, skipping out on cine-lenses or is it better to get the Samyang series or the Tokina series?
Are these any good or is it better to go with lenses like the superb 35mm 1,4, even though it's a still lens?

 

[Dan Kanes]

Hi!

What kind of stuff do you shoot? Do you end up doing your own focusing a lot of the time or would you have an AC more than 50% of the time?

other than vintage lenses, you will not find a higher bang to buck ratio than the samyang / rokinon cine lenses. Once they have a 50mm (and maybe an 18mm) in the set they will rule the low budget world. They cover full frame.

zoom wise I am very intrigued by the new Sigma. Can't wait to test it.

I positively love my 24-70mm version 2 canon lens - which is not to say it doesn't have quirks. Certainly only for jobs where I do my own focus. Optically I like it a lot more than the version 1.

if you can stand focusing the wrong direction - nothing wrong with a set of older nikkors. Optically they are still very high grade and can be found in a variety of vintages which will lend different flavors.

 

[Scott Miller]

I thought the Rokinon/Samyang glass was full frame like Dan said.. I have the 35MM & 85MM and love them. But I am not a glass expert/fetishist or pixel peeper

[TABLE="class: specTable"]
[TR]
[TD="class: specTopic"]Focal Length [/TD]
[TD="class: specDetail"] 85 mm
Comparable APS-C Focal Length: 127.5 mm [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: specTopic"]Aperture [/TD]
[TD="class: specDetail"] Maximum: f/1.4
Minimum: f/22 [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: specTopic"]Camera Mount Type [/TD]
[TD="class: specDetail"] Canon EF [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: specTopic"]Format Compatibility [/TD]
[TD="class: specDetail"] Canon (APS-C)
35mm Film / Full-Frame Digital Sensor [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: specTopic"]Angle of View [/TD]
[TD="class: specDetail"] 28.3° [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: specTopic"]Minimum Focus Distance [/TD]
[TD="class: specDetail"] 3.3' (1.01 m) [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="class: specTopic"]Groups/Elements [/TD]
[TD="class: specDetail"] 7/9 [/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[Julio Quintana]

Just my 2 cents, but although I agree with you that lenses are a long-term investment that hold their value well, that's an idea that holds true for high end glass that will continue to produce rentals for years to come. You are looking at lenses in the sub-$900 range, which in my opinion is more of an owner-operator kit than a rental item.

I'm not sure if you we're planning on using these lenses to generate rental income, but just throwing that out there in case it was affecting your decision.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Just my 2 cents, but although I agree with you that lenses are a long-term investment that hold their value well, that's an idea that holds true for high end glass that will continue to produce rentals for years to come. You are looking at lenses in the sub-$900 range, which in my opinion is more of an owner-operator kit than a rental item.

I'm not sure if you we're planning on using these lenses to generate rental income, but just throwing that out there in case it was affecting your decision.

I'm sure that's what Sony told their customers when they sold them the F23 few years ago. Or the F35. We all know where that went...:thumbdown:
Lets learn something from the past for once:
The traditional PL glass is approaching the EOL. The prices are ridiculously high because the market is very tiny. Everybody and their mother is dashing to the finish line to offer PL glass.
Lighter cameras need lighter lenses. Cheaper cameras need cheaper lenses. Add to this the tech like image stabilization (and much more-no point to mention now). There is zero advantage that the cine lenses have in their most basic spec- image quality. In fact the new Sigma is light years ahead of them all. More to come in the still world I'm sure.
In the mean time the cine market first reasonable lens kit- the Schneider Xenons - are 3 T2.1 primes at $4K each. Do you see the technological gap here?
I've worked with PL glass for 25 years. I see the writing on the wall...
I say get the cheap high IQ glass and you'll sleep like a baby...
And before the PL glass owners that need their ROI start bashing me - just remember what they said about the RED tech few years ago. And where are we now....

 

[Jiri Vrozina]

Jesus Sigma lenses to operate 10 hours a day as a single operator .
Give me Zeiss ZE,ZF anyday. Nice long throw focus,good images.
Another option is Contax, Leica and Nikon AIS.....BUT ....only ZEISS ZE,ZF has nice long throw focusing.
So perhaps optically Sigma is OK , but to work with plastic every day is a......

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Forget that short focus throw and inaccurate marks. That's been taken care of.
Let's talk about 5 wide, fast, quality primes in one 2 lb (1kg) lens-now that's a time saver on set.

 

[Jiri Vrozina]

Just buy Full frame primes in 2013.
Forget about long throw qfocus ?,well for guys who do not operate cameras 10 hours a day it is ok.
well i suppose one can drive Trabant from Katowice to Prage a make a trip...but would it be nice to do it in a new E Class.

My advice is:
Invest in Full Frame glass and forget about Squeekiiiii Platic optics NOT DESIGNED FOR MANUAL OPERATION ;-)

 

[Alvise Tedesco]

Jacek, although I am really interested in your products, I would much prefer having more concrete info, than seeing you making self promotion here and there.
Actually I necessarily am a bit skeptic about your claim of perfect, smooth, snappy, ultraprecise focus remapping. I mean, this new 18-35 has 4-5 mm of throw for all the distances between 2 mt and infinite...
You said somewhere money back if not 100% happy.
That is fine, but a hassle. I'd prefer some unpartial feedback. And some of the infos you said you were ready to publish. Videos and all.
Also. What about the newly announced mount? Are you talking with Red as to move part of actual optitron r&d to the newer level?

 

[Jiri Vrozina]

<<<< I mean, this new 18-35 has 4-5 mm of throw for all the distances between 2 mt and infinite...>>>>

Good luck to camera operators following shots and focusing with that.
you will have to have fingers of surgeons or pianists...

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

<<<< I mean, this new 18-35 has 4-5 mm of throw for all the distances between 2 mt and infinite...>>>>

Good luck to camera operators following shots and focusing with that.
you will have to have fingers of surgeons or pianists...

OK- let me be more clear because it seems I'm not- EFF (electronic follow focus) remaps the limited rotation on the lens to a full rotation of the focus knob.
Or more if you want.
The physical amount of the focus ring rotation is irrelevant. There is no going back to mechanical FF with AF lenses.
Alvise what can I do?
Guys that bought the system use it on jobs and have no time to post here.
I have some footage videos but can't post them per their request.
It's best you wait for more units out in the field to convince yourself- let me know what else I can help you with.
PRODUCT is what's most important to me- all our resources go there.
Promotion is second -what good is marketing if the product is inferior...
Having said that-we are just about done with the second revision batch order.
Time for marketing...
Videos are coming....

 

[paul schefz]

it is obviously always better to have lenses that cover more then less....and using a smaller circle on a FF lens only uses the sweet spot of the lens so there is an advantage to this as well....
that said: there are some really, very nice lenses available that cover less then FF....the canon 17-55 is one....and works fine on epic 5K HD frame (ok...just borderline but still)...
a friend of mine (still shooter) just got the new sigma 35mm with his d800 and he says it might be the best all around lens he has ever had... that incl most canon, nikon, hasselblad, zeiss....and reviews seem to agree....does that make it a great motion lens? probably not....focus is probably a pain....
i think we will see major advances in way we achieve focus...wireless, maybe even working AF for motion? and there is a lot of stuff out there right now that makes any lens as easy to work with as a old school PL lens....
i really don't believe that all "heavy", "solid" zeiss/old nikon/....lenses are better then a top of the line canon or sigma....do older lenses have a "signature" or "character"? yes, of course....but that does not mean you can't get great results with a modern lens....
i personally really dislike most modern zeiss lenses.....and i prefer some of the cheaper leica lenses to the top of the line APOs....same goes for the canons btw....just because a lens is 1.2 does not mean it is a great lens and if you never shoot below f4, the 1.2 "look" is lost and the lens has to be evaluated for different reasons, which means the 1.8 might actually be a better lens for that situation....
i am a big schneider fan and the new line looks very promising......but then i do a handheld pan with one of my canon zooms and IS blows me away and an impossible shot with a non IS lens all of a sudden is no problem....
i guess i would rather save my money to get the best sensor/camera possible and then start assembling lenses that give me a certain look....or if money is no problem, just buy it all....but it always is and even if i had all lenses at my fingertips at all times, i would probably still shoot quite a bit with the canon (nikon/sigms/...) zooms.....
i honestly don't understand why they can't put IS in these HUGE, HEAVY PL lenses.....

 

[paul schefz]

<<<< I mean, this new 18-35 has 4-5 mm of throw for all the distances between 2 mt and infinite...>>>>

Good luck to camera operators following shots and focusing with that.
you will have to have fingers of surgeons or pianists...

doesn't any follow focus pretty much take care of that? you can set it to what ever you want....

 

[Owen Rennie]

I only own a few canon L primes. I've never used any cine glass. All I know is that I love the quality but they suck using on my rig with a matte box and follow focus. The 85mm for example has the tiniest throw focus ring a the front of lens which makes it impossible to use as well as impossible to put doughnuts on for the matte box. My 24mm 1.4 is my only still lens that is ok... I will not purchase anymore still glass. From now on ill be looking at PL cine glass. (Sorry if off topic)

 

[Jiri Vrozina]

doesn't any follow focus pretty much take care of that? you can set it to what ever you want....

do you mean continuous follow focus? ;-)
On Zeiss Still Lenses you have far more precise Follow Focus, much more room to play with.
Regarding IS on lenses, yes it is handy for Hand Held but not necessary with modern support. Have you tried using it in Windy Conditions.? I guess you can switch it OFF.
I recently sold my new Canons 24-70mm f2.8 MK2 and 70-200IS, started using old Nikons 28-70, 17-35 and 80-200.
I really Hope Schneider Cine-XENON will have 18,25,35,50,75 and 135 soon ...

 

[Julio Quintana]

I'm sure that's what Sony told their customers when they sold them the F23 few years ago. Or the F35. We all know where that went...:thumbdown:
Lets learn something from the past for once:
The traditional PL glass is approaching the EOL. The prices are ridiculously high because the market is very tiny. Everybody and their mother is dashing to the finish line to offer PL glass.
Lighter cameras need lighter lenses. Cheaper cameras need cheaper lenses. Add to this the tech like image stabilization (and much more-no point to mention now). There is zero advantage that the cine lenses have in their most basic spec- image quality. In fact the new Sigma is light years ahead of them all. More to come in the still world I'm sure.
In the mean time the cine market first reasonable lens kit- the Schneider Xenons - are 3 T2.1 primes at $4K each. Do you see the technological gap here?
I've worked with PL glass for 25 years. I see the writing on the wall...
I say get the cheap high IQ glass and you'll sleep like a baby...
And before the PL glass owners that need their ROI start bashing me - just remember what they said about the RED tech few years ago. And where are we now....

Jacek, if you look at my signature you will see I only own a Canon lens package that I would love to use as a source of rental income. But I just don't think they are adequate for the rigors of a professional shoot. Focus marks is just one part of the equation. For example, try using a clamp-on mattebox with a still lens and see what happens. Or try to find a complete set of still lenses that are the same weight so you don't have to rebalance your Steadicam with every lens change.

So obviously I am not promoting PL glass to protect my ROI. I am just being honest. What is your agenda?

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

Jacek, if you look at my signature you will see I only own a Canon lens package that I would love to use as a source of rental income. But I just don't think they are adequate for the rigors of a professional shoot. Focus marks is just one part of the equation. For example, try using a clamp-on mattebox with a still lens and see what happens. Or try to find a complete set of still lenses that are the same weight so you don't have to rebalance your Steadicam with every lens change.

So obviously I am not promoting PL glass to protect my ROI. I am just being honest. What is your agenda?

I agree with you 100% there- your package is not adequate for professional shoot (whatever that means) Simply because they are not set up properly.
Zip gears won't do it- trust me.
No matter what Zacuto tells you.
You can't just take one species from its eco system- put in another , completely different and expect it to thrive. That's just wishful thinking.
As you found out -sticking cine clip on matte box with step down ring won't do it either.
And so on.
Yes I do have an agenda- educating people about proper use of modern technology and its potential.
and I'm doing something about it so it's not just empty conjecture...

 

[Nick Morrison]

Jesus Sigma lenses to operate 10 hours a day as a single operator .
Give me Zeiss ZE,ZF anyday. Nice long throw focus,good images.
Another option is Contax, Leica and Nikon AIS.....BUT ....only ZEISS ZE,ZF has nice long throw focusing.
So perhaps optically Sigma is OK , but to work with plastic every day is a......

In my experience, the focus throws between ZF/ZE, Leica R and Contax are comprable. Especially once you get to medium and telephoto focal lengths.

 

[Les Dittert]

People will be using the motors already inside to focus soon.
Do you still start your car by getting out and cranking a big handle on the front ?

bwt; My Sigma 35 1.4 A series has a focus throw of 1/4 turn. It's the highest optical performance 35 fast prime there is right now. Sigma is out to upstage the other companies and it's working so far. They upset the apple cart at Nikon and Canon.

 

[Jiri Vrozina]

I wonder if that plastic sigma will last 2 years when used every day manually. I played with it, give me Zeiss 35mm f1.4 or any Manual old lens anytime . Autofocus motors are not designed for continuous video coverage yet.