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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Any word on the New Epic Option?

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Jannard said:
We have finished the EPIC development. Now we have to fab the boards, tooling and set up a line. While we are waiting, we can build one by one machined cameras and hand assemble with titanium mounts if there is anyone interested to pay more for something like this. We are going through now to see what we would have to charge to sell these because they will cost us a ton more than production run bodies.

There is no price increase on production EPICs. But this seemed like a way to get a few out sooner for those that can't wait.

When we have a number, we'll put it out there. There is no requirement for anyone to buy these, just kills a bit of time. If there was interest, they would go to customers by number 1st. There would be no trade in allowance. Numbers would be limited to what we can make until the line is fully operational.

It is important to note that these cameras would not delay or hold up production from the line. They are not Tattoo cameras... they would be special production cameras.

Just a thought and we wanted to hear some opinions... we can go either way.

Jim
Click to expand...

So is that the EPIC news, we were waiting for? thats it? :aureola:
 
Are we talking about the option of buying a pre-ordered EPIC or buying totally off-queue? Meaning $28K + premium? So if I had the cash to buy one of these hand-built EPICs now - would I still be able to go Stage 2 later?
 
Jannard said:
We have finished the EPIC development. Now we have to fab the boards, tooling and set up a line. While we are waiting, we can build one by one machined cameras and hand assemble with titanium mounts if there is anyone interested to pay more for something like this. We are going through now to see what we would have to charge to sell these because they will cost us a ton more than production run bodies.

There is no price increase on production EPICs. But this seemed like a way to get a few out sooner for those that can't wait.

When we have a number, we'll put it out there. There is no requirement for anyone to buy these, just kills a bit of time. If there was interest, they would go to customers by number 1st. There would be no trade in allowance. Numbers would be limited to what we can make until the line is fully operational.

It is important to note that these cameras would not delay or hold up production from the line. They are not Tattoo cameras... they would be special production cameras.

Just a thought and we wanted to hear some opinions... we can go either way.

Jim
Click to expand...

Mark L. Pederson said:
Depends how fast and how much. But I am 1000% interested in more cameras at a premium, specifically due to interest and demand for 3D.

I think what matters the most to make such a decision is having the "latest best guess" at when STAGE 2 will roll, etc. -

But ... yeah ... you are going to get a BUNCH of folks who will pay $$ to get them faster -
Click to expand...


What Mark said Jim,

I will seriously consider this, especially so it could allow me to go back to Italy
with Epic-X in my hands, not that I'm not happy taking the Red One MX,
but you know what I mean ;)

Look forward to hear more!!


EDIT:


It seems that so much gets taken out of context so I'll put in my 2cents..


A) This is likely to be a similar deal to what was originally to be the TATTOO program, just that now will
be expended to more STAGE II original reserves.

B) This is not BESIDES Stage II, as it seems obvious that once you have taken the possibility of buying
a Hand Build Epic-X it will be EXECUTING one of your ORIGINAL Stage II Reservations.

C) TATTOO or Stage I was to be paid in full @ 28k and not the discounted Stage II deal of 19.5K and
for this I say it could be very fair to pay this and possibly some more for an early Hand Build Epic-X.

D) All the Above stil off course will depend on time line of getting the early Hand Build Epic-X vs. the
rest of stage II production cameras.

E) As Jim stated that this early Hand Build cameras will not be effecting the Production line of the
other Stage II cameras, I trust there should be no concern at all to those not entering the early opportunity to an Hand Build Epic-X.
 
Please give us a price, and I am sure you will be building many HANDMADE EPIC's very soon.
 
I will Echo Mark and Ketch, I will pay a premium to get EPIC-X in my hands shooting now while you build production line. I think this option is very fair for the customer and the demand certainly exist so lets get this ball rolling shall we.

Oh I almost forgot to mention! Happy Turkey Day Jim and Redusers! Enjoy the holiday.
 
No question that there will be some percentage of customers willing/able to pay a premium to get their cameras first. Given what some miguided people are paying for an Alexa, Red could double Epic's price and it would still be a bargain. Times being what they are though, there will be many who can't afford the premium - I am definitely in this latter category (and I'm grateful that Red is honoring it's original price, even if the delivery timeline remains uncertain).

- Tim
 
Depends on price and how much time we would save compared to normal production line.

Antoine
 
C.H.Haskell said:
I will Echo Mark and Ketch, I will pay a premium to get EPIC-X in my hands shooting now while you build production line. I think this option is very fair for the customer and the demand certainly exist so lets get this ball rolling shall we.
Click to expand...

It's intriguing (depending on the amount of the premium) and assuming it records audio and that some of the modules are available -- say power, I/O, evf, and one of the 3 ways to control the camera? And at lease one of the sizes of SSDs.

Safe to say there is interest, but Jim, you've got to give us a little more detail before you're going to have a meaningful read of who will buy. I'm not so interested in paying a premium to have an Epic body on my desk that I can't really use for production because none of the other stuff is ready. I don't think you would propose that, but I'm not sure what you are proposing.

So have a great Thanksgiving! I'm looking forward to hearing more after the holiday.
 
I'm sure it will be priced out of my range, but I think it is really awesome that you're offering this option. Bring on the EPICs and silence the critics.

The more of these you can get in the field, the less you'll have to listen to the "not shipping" critique and the closer I will get to my production model. And we'll get feedback from the folks in the field.

My only question is - what about recording media? It seems like all of the other RED accessories will work with EPIC until the full EPIC line is released, but recording media continues to be a scarce commodity - what is the word on being able to meet demand on recording media for the release cameras?
 
C.H.Haskell said:
I think this option is very fair for the customer ....
Click to expand...

Jay A. Kelley said:
...snip
I dunno Jim.. The more I think about this... The more red flags it brings up.

This is such a complicated release, and there's so much I/we do not know. I think the better track right now is to stay with your origional plan.

Jay
Click to expand...

I have been stewing about this for a few minutes. On the one hand I'm interested because I'd like a camera sooner rather than later.

But I have to disagree with Haskell - I think there are some serious fairness issues here.

And I have to agree with Jay. Lotta red flags.

Jim:

I don't want to get branded with the "bad attitude" stamp but a few weeks ago you said Epic was finalized in its major respects and "released for production". Well, honestly I thought that's where you would have been when you asked us for $5000 deposits on stage 2. I understand how getting the exact board and electronics design finalized can be hard to predict and have delays, but I'm having a harder time understanding how the manufacturing and assembly line stuff wasn't virtually completed quite a while ago.

But that's all water under the bridge. No, I don't want my deposit back, and no I don't want another camera - I want the camera I ordered, from the company I have been on board with and promoted since day one.

But before you start asking about altering the program, after you've taken those 25% deposits, it's time to lay out what's really going on:

A realistic `description of what you are doing in terms of mfg. facility and how long that is going to take; what's going on with these circuit boards - AFAIK board manufacturing is pretty straightforward from lots of suppliers with pretty short turnaround and usually the time it takes is more about lead time scheduling - if they can make a few dozen boards they can make hundreds in another day or two. Special lemo connectors can take awhile but you've known what those were for months. I thought you would be CNC machining body parts for all of the epics but even if the long range plan is casting, the additional cost to CNC is not that great in strict dollar terms or as a percentage of the price. Seems like you should have your own CNC capability, but if not there are dozens in your area. And how many man hours does it really take to handbuild one of these?

Maybe I'm mistaken because I've underestimated the complexity, if so then educate us a bit. I can't see how some better disclosure at this late date, so close to delivery and given the announcements the other players have already made, will really give away any big secrets to competitors.

As far as a new program, I think anything that dramatically changes the cost of entry or delivery order is unfair.

In particular a higher priced/no trade in/jump the line version just reeks of unfairness.

Here's my scenario for what might be reasonable and fair (no consulting fee, this one time :-) )

1) you lay out that it is going to be say 4-10 weeks (whatever you think it is) to get real production setup.
2) you estimate that you can make 10 to 20 (whatever it is) per week in the mean time. The prepro number will be limited to that max times the max estimate of weeks e.g. 15 units x 10 weeks = 150. Beyond that it is unfair to string the other people out, and you should just wait for full production.
3) You offer the stage 2 people to take their camera early (in order of original SN/delivery date) as one of these "handbuilts" for a $1000-$1500 (and $1500 is pushing it) premium on top of their $19500.

I'm not saying that $1000 will or won't cover the difference. I'm saying that it should either 1) cover it or 2) you should eat the difference as part of development and learning costs, goodwill and the PR value of getting it out or:

3) DON'T DO IT if 1 or 2 isn't acceptable. I'm sure many would buy outright at a high price, but regardless of whether some will go for it, it is abusive to the rest.


PS I had serious concerns about saying this at all/possible repercussions, but I think it needed to be said. Please take it in the spirit it is given. And Happy Thanksgiving to all the RED team.
 
[QUOTE
3) DON'T DO IT if 1 or 2 isn't acceptable. I'm sure many would buy outright at a high price, but regardless of whether some will go for it, it is abusive to the rest. [/QUOTE]

I second that, :smilewinkgrin: good point brotha :thumbsup:
 
Michael and Sandro-bachmann have legitimate concerns, but I think by simply making this a handmade version for those in the Stage 2 line in place of... not in addition to, is where a fairness balance is achieved. That helps those of us unable to pony up the extra cash for a handmade model be a little closer to getting our cameras (depending on our place in line) when the production model is released.
 
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as for 1-2-3

1) I kinda have the feeling that its going to be more like 4 -10 months before we see an assembly line Epic. Thats why this is on the table.

2) I have a feeling they would be lucky to hand assemble 10 - 20 per month.

3) this makes some sense to me, price variable. (1000-1500 seems inexpensive though). Seems like a no-brainer.

It feels like the stage one option offered earlier doesn't it? What happened to those guys? This feels like their deal, not a stage 2 deal.

Tattoo Two? Ta-Too-Too?

I can sympathize with your need for more information regarding a timetable for delivery though. At least a best guess, Subject to Change
(trademark).
 
Jannard said:
We have finished the EPIC development. Now we have to fab the boards, tooling and set up a line. While we are waiting, we can build one by one machined cameras and hand assemble with titanium mounts if there is anyone interested to pay more for something like this. We are going through now to see what we would have to charge to sell these because they will cost us a ton more than production run bodies.

There is no price increase on production EPICs. But this seemed like a way to get a few out sooner for those that can't wait.

When we have a number, we'll put it out there. There is no requirement for anyone to buy these, just kills a bit of time. If there was interest, they would go to customers by number 1st. There would be no trade in allowance. Numbers would be limited to what we can make until the line is fully operational.

It is important to note that these cameras would not delay or hold up production from the line. They are not Tattoo cameras... they would be special production cameras.

Just a thought and we wanted to hear some opinions... we can go either way.

Jim
Click to expand...


This is of interest to me, but before I decided one way or the other I would want to know the answers to the following:

1. What kind of price increase are we talking about?

2. Is this in addition to Stage 2 (Am I buying another camera) or can this be in replacement of my Stage 2 camera?

3. Will the other accessories ship with it? (The new LCD, Side SSD, 64GB SSD's, Batteries, etc.) Basically, will I have a fully working camera?

4. What is the estimated timeline for the production line being up and running, and when it is going, what is the number of Epics that will be shipping per month?
 
Jannard said:
We have finished the EPIC development. Now we have to fab the boards, tooling and set up a line. While we are waiting, we can build one by one machined cameras and hand assemble with titanium mounts if there is anyone interested to pay more for something like this. We are going through now to see what we would have to charge to sell these because they will cost us a ton more than production run bodies.

There is no price increase on production EPICs. But this seemed like a way to get a few out sooner for those that can't wait.

When we have a number, we'll put it out there. There is no requirement for anyone to buy these, just kills a bit of time. If there was interest, they would go to customers by number 1st. There would be no trade in allowance. Numbers would be limited to what we can make until the line is fully operational.

It is important to note that these cameras would not delay or hold up production from the line. They are not Tattoo cameras... they would be special production cameras.

Just a thought and we wanted to hear some opinions... we can go either way.

Jim
Click to expand...

Wow ... awesome! Depending on the price count me in for as many as 5! Any limit on the order of these? haha Definitely looking forward to more info on this.

Opening our new facility in a matter of months so this may be a hugely beneficial option to pay more and have them now vs. hoping we get the production version in time.

Happy Thanksgiving Jim and everyone at RED ... go eat some turkey and relax for a bit :)
 
Ryan E. Walters said:
This is of interest to me, but before I decided one way or the other I would want to know the answers to the following:

1. What kind of price increase are we talking about?

2. Is this in addition to Stage 2 (Am I buying another camera) or can this be in replacement of my Stage 2 camera?

3. Will the other accessories ship with it? (The new LCD, Side SSD, 64GB SSD's, Batteries, etc.) Basically, will I have a fully working camera?

4. What is the estimated timeline for the production line being up and running, and when it is going, what is the number of Epics that will be shipping per month?
Click to expand...

All very good points.
 
Jannard said:
We have finished the EPIC development. Now we have to fab the boards, tooling and set up a line. While we are waiting, we can build one by one machined cameras and hand assemble with titanium mounts if there is anyone interested to pay more for something like this. We are going through now to see what we would have to charge to sell these because they will cost us a ton more than production run bodies.
Click to expand...

Well, I'm definitely interested. But I'm probably too far down the line with my two Stage-2 reservations for it to be realistic for me.

You say there is no trade-in allowance? So I'm assuming that means these will be the full $28K Epic purchase price PLUS an additional premium to make it happen. OK, yes, I'm still interested in doing that for one of my cameras. RED #1110 specifically as that's the reservation I own in my name personally.

Timing is key though and I have to be realistic about how I'm budgeting for my upcoming Epic-X purchases. Most of what I have planned for my Epic-X cameras are all my own projects, but being first on the block, even in my market, is a huge deal.

So I guess the big questions are:

1> What will be the price of the hand-made units?

2> How long will it take to tool up the full production line? So how much time could we be potentially saving if we were one of the first to get the hand-made unit, compared to the first units rolling off the assembly line?

3> I hear the no trade-in allowance loud and clear. But what about delivery date priorities? Do they still factor into this in addition to RED camera #? If someone chooses this hand-made option, do they get upgraded delivery date priority in the future for taking the plunge?

4> How many of these hand-made cameras can you guys produce in a week?
 
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