[Answered by Graeme] : Am I doing something wrong?

[jimhare]

Do you mean the difference between getting the Side SSD module or going without it? I don't think any of us consider the Epic complete without it as it is integral to the system to record 5k/6k RAW.

The real reason you can order without it is so you have a choice between the full size and mini SSDs, not that you might want to forfeit RAW recording completely.

No worries, although…I payed $1500 more to get RAW recording on my Epic. It only came with SDI and HDMI outputs, the RAW recorder was a separate module. Have they integrated it into the body on the Epic DRAGONs? That'd be cool.

Sony's RAW recorder is pricier, but it also includes some features that RED's doesn't include, such as 240fps recording at 2K resolution without cropping the sensor. Either way, both are relatively affordable for what they do.

 

[Denis Buhot]

Denis,

you can worry all you like but it seems like you have been reading to much about dragon and not using it enough. All the statements you make above are pretty much false. I've used my epic, and now my dragon in those situations you describe in about five different countries over the past few years. All I can say about your post is that, it's total BS.

Battistella

Ok, David, I do not remind of talking to you that way, did I ? Have I shown any disrespect ? To you, or to red, when I own and like my mx epic and fully acknowledge that Dragon can produce stunning images ? I read, yes, e.g. posts in this very thread. Can you prove me wrong about what I simply say, and not what you are trying to make out of it ? Besides, I have conducted my tests with a friend's epic dragon. Not sure you're helping anyway answering the way you do. So, when it comes to BS... I shall not continue with this, and rather post elsewhere, if you allow me to do so, of course.

 

[David Battistella]

Denis,

I am not telling you to post elsewhere. But you said can't be used for efp, can't do run and gun and have to expose everything at 250 ISO. Ok. That's your experience. I'm calling bullshit on that as I have had the total opposite experience. Things are worse with dragon? I've posted TONS of images and tests here. Don't ask me for more. Show me yours.

Plenty of people are having the opposite experience of what you posted and because I point out to you that is the case you say I'm somehow not being fair or that you weren't addressing me? This isn't an msn chat. It's a group discussion

battistella

 

[Jan Reiff]

For ten grand more, it seems that you will get a camera that needs black shading, that won't shoot properly if cold, that will shoot best at iso 250 or that will need to swap olpf. So you'd better forget about the press button and record stuff, or any kind of run and gun, or efp/eng, or use when power is scarce both for camera and lighting. You will get an outstanding, yet demanding and pretty touchy stage camera. Period. And it seems everybody is happy with that, and that red simply does not seem to care, while things are getting worse in that respect. Red was never the easiest camera to work with in the field. Yet, that was vastly compensated for by many advantages in image quality. But again, it seems that things are getting worse instead of better with Dragon... I simply don't understand what can reasonably be expected, since competition will likely take full advantage from that kind of choices.

Anyway, people like me who chose red, wanted to use the epic in the field or wanted it to simply "work" when needed are coldly left on the side of the road here, with no upgrade practically available in the future. I confess that I find it pretty unfair.

I am also... worried

things are getting worse instead of better with Dragon ? maybe "things", but not image. it IS better. significant. that´s all about. the look and feel of an image.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Is the camera black shaded for all those situations. If you are going to mix high speed and different shutter speeds, warm and cold cameras and so on you need to have a black shade for each to minimize the color shifts and noise in the image. There is a current issue with the red noise on higher ISO with the new OLPF, but most of the time I don't think people do proper black shading. It's something I'm trying to learn everything about right now so that I don't get any bad images when working.

Only thing I would have wanted was to be able to save the black shades to an internal memory to be able to just switch them in camera instead of having them on the SSD cards. Maybe a future module should be able to have a memory card slot for such settings just like the old Red One. For saving looks, black shades, user settings etc. so you could easily switch between your own defaults and something/someone else.

 

[David Battistella]

Is the camera black shaded for all those situations. If you are going to mix high speed and different shutter speeds, warm and cold cameras and so on you need to have a black shade for each to minimize the color shifts and noise in the image. There is a current issue with the red noise on higher ISO with the new OLPF, but most of the time I don't think people do proper black shading. It's something I'm trying to learn everything about right now so that I don't get any bad images when working.

Only thing I would have wanted was to be able to save the black shades to an internal memory to be able to just switch them in camera instead of having them on the SSD cards. Maybe a future module should be able to have a memory card slot for such settings just like the old Red One. For saving looks, black shades, user settings etc. so you could easily switch between your own defaults and something/someone else.

You can store four user and default for a total of 5 blackshading calibrations onboard the camera in the beta build.

Battistella

 

[Denis Buhot]

Denis,

I am not telling you to post elsewhere. But you said can't be used for efp, can't do run and gun and have to expose everything at 250 ISO. Ok. That's your experience. I'm calling bullshit on that as I have had the total opposite experience. Things are worse with dragon? I've posted TONS of images and tests here. Don't ask me for more. Show me yours.

Plenty of people are having the opposite experience of what you posted and because I point out to you that is the case you say I'm somehow not being fair or that you weren't addressing me? This isn't an msn chat. It's a group discussion

battistella

Sorry David, I thought this was a msn chat, really, especially when I read the way you express yourself, your sense of nuance and the way you distort what you don't like. Yes, I am saying red dragon needs calibration, that it may dislike being shot out of calibration map, will need olpf swap to get low light capability, has to warm up before shooting, and that new olpf has noisy blacks if lighting conditions are poor. Did I unveil the hideous, hidden truth ? Said something concealed since the beginning of times ? Am I unfair to Red saying this ? Or did I say what is obvious, what other say and just said in previous posts in this thread (and what I have experienced myself) ? Happy to hear you can use Dragon in real efp/eng/documentary With due respect, because I do not know about your background, are you sure you know exactly what you are talking about when it comes to field condition/real efp/eng/documentary ? I know of a red savant that had some experience in efp/eng and was a red supporter from the very beginning. It seems that he has made his decision. Unfortunately, he preferred quitting rather than speaking, and he is not longer here to back me. The problem is not so much with Dragon, what it is and what it is not, and what can be done to make it better. The problem is rather people like you, I am afraid, who decide to fall back on insult or contempt. I shall post elsewhere, because instead of silencing me, you have convinced it might be useful. You made it useful to say what is common knowledge, why it is useful to say it, and why it must not be covered by endless technical discussion. Unless you tell us that we must simply be happy with what is not satisfactory. So I will post elsewhere specifically, if this forum is still a place for courteous, matter-of-fact discussion, that may help people make their opinion, express their dissent or disappontment, and may help Red listen, too. Now, in keeping with your previous line, you may reply my English is definitely poor, but then, do reply in French.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Chill...

OP had a friendly advice from Graeme to blackshade.
That sounds smart.
And he has not posted back.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

You can store four user and default for a total of 5 blackshading calibrations onboard the camera in the beta build.

Battistella

Oh wow, YEAH! haha missed that! :emote_happyhappy:

I'm not going to install a beta build though, waiting for the stable release. But, is this just for Dragon or will I be able to save the black shade in my MX?

 

[Timothy Eaton]

This is becoming a bit alarming. It's all over Reduser now, thread after thread after thread. Arguably the best (okay, top three - nobody can argue with that) digital cinema camera in the world is getting trashed by people who probably mean well, and probably want to make good images, but obviously have little experience and no idea what they are talking about. The scary part is the concern that some of this FUD begins to damage the brand.

Its one thing to talk about some issues with OLPF or what that might mean with respect to exposure / noise. Fine. It's quite another to start saying the camera can only be used as a "studio" camera, or that Dragon is the camera with red specks in the blacks.

Ive been shooting professionally for almost 35 years. I've never owned (till now) anything as lovely as Dragon. My Arri 16SR was a close second. Dragon is capabable of making extraordinary images, and unlike a 535 back in the day, I can own it and a whole complement of gear. I can hold it in one hand. I can create images that can compare side by side with top tier theatrical releases. So when the OP posts a poorly exposed, cold, non black shaded image and the whole thread devolves into a a series on why Dragon is not ready or has serious flaws or is not worth the money or why Red is a greedy, devious company (other threads) it starts to sound like a lot of posters are speaking Martian.

There are obviously a lot of very experienced filmmakers on Reduser, like David and Bob and Bjorn and Phil and others, God bless 'em, who patiently try to explain what some users might not know. But one effect of Reduser these days, is that it seems to end up giving as much weight to uniformed nonsense speak as it does to the experienced voices. This doesn't seem to bode well. Maybe it's time to shut up and go shoot.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

This is becoming a bit alarming. It's all over Reduser now, thread after thread after thread. Arguably the best (okay, top three - nobody can argue with that) digital cinema camera in the world is getting trashed by people who probably mean well, and probably want to make good images, but obviously have little experience and no idea what they are talking about. The scary part is the concern that some of this FUD begins to damage the brand.

Its one thing to talk about some issues with OLPF or what that might mean with respect to exposure / noise. Fine. It's quite another to start saying the camera can only be used as a "studio" camera, or that Dragon is the camera with red specks in the blacks.

Ive been shooting professionally for almost 35 years. I've never owned (till now) anything as lovely as Dragon. My Arri 16SR was a close second. Dragon is capabable of making extraordinary images, and unlike a 535 back in the day, I can own it and a whole complement of gear. I can hold it in one hand. I can create images that can compare side by side with top tier theatrical releases. So when the OP posts a poorly exposed, cold, non black shaded image and the whole thread devolves into a a series on why Dragon is not ready or has serious flaws or is not worth the money or why Red is a greedy, devious company (other threads) it starts to sound like a lot of posters are speaking Martian.

There are obviously a lot of very experienced filmmakers on Reduser, like David and Bob and Bjorn and Phil and others, God bless 'em, who patiently try to explain what some users might not know. But one effect of Reduser these days, is that it seems to end up giving as much weight to uniformed nonsense speak as it does to the experienced voices. This doesn't seem to bode well. Maybe it's time to shut up and go shoot.

I feel tempted to close thisone down. because:

a) there are allready a lot of these discussions.
b) Thisone is as far as I can see actually solved, with Graeme's simple reply.

I'll give it an hour...

 

[Björn Benckert]

I feel tempted to close thisone down. because:

a) there are allready a lot of these discussions.
b) Thisone is as far as I can see actually solved, with Graeme's simple reply.

I'll give it an hour...

Close it, or rename it... "Can not find the metadata settings in resolve"...

Sorry this was another thread. ignore this post.

 

[Bohdan Klos]

I am trying to reduce posting for fear of being labeled a hater or incompetent.

Gunliek - seriously try to get the attack dogs to back down on the people who come here to voice concerns. (i`m not specifically talking about this thread).

The concerns over bad publicity is kept alive by the fuel to the fire that the same few members throw.

Do an experiment - pm a few of the usual enthusiastic defenders and have a pact with them for a week or two...say.... "hey guys lets not riducle and call into question fellow members skill sets and see how long these conversations last and if we make them LESS heated"....you know sometimes being ridiculed doesnt sit well with some people?

Deleting or closing threads send out the wrong message - I`m trying to help - Try moderating the inflamatory posts that are directed at peoples skill sets or motivations and I bet you the conversations will be less heated and less interesting to read for the people looking to find fault with Red equipment.

Or leave it the way it is...I guess.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Hello my Reduser friends,

As Greame for the black shade advice, Denis also made a great advice to the op.

The Red Dragon is (as of today) only for the brave. The ones who daily are ready to read Readuser, send their camera in, and test their tool on a fw upgrade pace. I've been shooting RED since February 2008 and the R3D raw is a blessing. But I've talked to the main rental company today and they hate Red as they would have to get the client teacher about the workarounds. Every Epic is different depending on the hardware upgrade stage (they have been like 6 different epics I won't go into the detail) without naming all fw upgrades. This means a unstable platform and yet a "new camera" (another) you have to learn (log "raw view" changes being one of the most unexpected one).

If you need something without technical risk your best choice as of today is surely the f55.

Happy shooting.

Pat

For ten grand more, it seems that you will get a camera that needs black shading, that won't shoot properly if cold, that will shoot best at iso 250 or that will need to swap olpf. So you'd better forget about the press button and record stuff, or any kind of run and gun, or efp/eng, or use when power is scarce both for camera and lighting. You will get an outstanding, yet demanding and pretty touchy stage camera. Period.

Ps Great post Denis.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

This is not a "mods" decission, nut "mine". So go after me if you think it's wrong.
But I'll give this thread a break.
OPs issue is most likely solved with a blackshade and the noise after is not very constructive.

Wondering if we should have a
"Something unexpected happens with my Dragon image, what may be the cause" thread, instead of all the blabber.

For now this thread is done as far as I can see... And belongs in the Complaints department as answered.

Gunleik