Another year of the Blues, no Red Scarlet yet.

[Michael Olsen]

 

[Aaron Newsome]

Michael, did you make that? Awesome!

 

[David Rasberry]

I can afford both.

That is not the point, the point is wether or not it makes good business sense to buy a raw camera at this time.

With the few clients I have that specifically ask for it, I rent.

There are other things to consider than just pure "artistic vision".

If one makes a living in commercial markets, what best serves client needs and makes you money comes first, no question.

For me Scarlet will be a hobby camera, a personal creative tool, though I am sure I will find a few projects of one kind or another to help pay for it.
My little GL2 paid for itself in one construction documentation job the same month I bought it, that was 5 years ago.

 

[Michael Olsen]

Michael, did you make that? Awesome!

Yes - I had something of a slow morning.

I feel like it rings true for much of the negative RED commentary.

 

[Zharmane Washington]

Michael i like that ... I just say by april i am buying what i need at the time.... i dont care along as it get the job done i may hate my self later if it is not the red but i put it off for a little over a year now i am ready i been playing around with some things and now i am ready to purchase

 

[Lee Saxon]

Being that I spend time on DVXUser and you obviously don't, I can tell you that yes, Panasonic DID ask the end users what they wanted in the AF-100 and 90% of those features are in the shipping camera.

If DVXUsers asked to pay $5,000 for 35Mbps 4:2:0...well, I don't wanna get into personal attacks, but that was....unwise.

 

[Philipe Ratton]

Its such a stupid discussion. People defending one camera over the other. If you think you can do whatever comes your way with a $5k camera, go for it. I think people are afraid of buying something and regreting later. Its a personal decision, live with it. I myself am waiting for EPIC. And shooting now with what I got.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

You have forgot one claim that has not changed Michael that everything can change

 

[Peter Szivolt]

Red Epic and Scarlet will stay high quality camera til the 4K TV's going to be the standard and even long after! Any other companys producing HD cameras nowdays are just for current use as HD is the star this time. There will be lot's people replacing their cameras again in stead of waiting a bit and buy it soon (EPIC). EPIC is truly future proof camera!!!!

 

[David Rasberry]

You have forgot one claim that has not changed Michael that everything can change

Red is not throwing the baby out with the bath water every few months and starting over from scratch.
I look at the original announcement for the modular series MX cameras and compare with where they are now and the changes are refinements that would normally occur during the development process of a new product. Things like dynamic range, the original target was 11+ stops and they have improved that by two stops not counting HDRx™™. Look at what else has changed in the world over the last two years, from the economy to manufacturing issues. All of that has impacted Red as it has the rest of us.
As Red has refined its products it also has refined itself as a company and its vision of its proper place in the market. This too is to be expected with a young technology startup. I can't begin to fathom the logistics required to bring such a complex high performance product to market, especially in such a short time frame and in a world economy teetering on the brink of collapse.
These guys aren't sitting at a desk twiddling their thumbs teasing us with daydreams. They are busting their butts working 20 hour days to get these cameras finished and in production. It is a rare thing for the public to be privy to the full development process for a new product line, warts and all, from when it was nothing but a 3d rendering and a concept.
All of the whining to make if faster, make it cheaper, and make it less capable than it can be has deservedly fallen on deaf ears.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Do you really think RED is trying to drive Panasonic and/or Sony and/or JVC etc, out of the camera business?? Show me a market where one company meets everyone's needs. Jim has made it clear that he is in business to serve professionals. Something tells me that a $1000 camera doesn't fit into that business model, at least not yet. I think Jim wants to build the cameras that HE would want to use himself..

If I was a woman and saw him carrying a Epic in his pocket on holidays, I think I would be running the other way.

Keeping that image in your mind, I think Jim is interested in using all sorts of 'convenient' cameras.

I'll explain. Back in the beginning their was talk of a pocket camera, but it was not meant to be that small. Scarlet, business wise, just plain and simply overlap too much with Epic. Their was room for a singular cheap camera that did not threaten Epic sales. Elitists, and those that could afford it, could easily go to Epic, the smaller camera would be the option for everybody else. It would need to not take the lens and equipment level of the bigger Epic. Maybe full 35mm still could also be OK as well. Excellent for extra cameras at the high end and thee camera at the low.

So, in this particular version of such a camera, it is a consumer camera getting large cost/price reduction from having 100K plus production runs. Now, what you may not know, is that certain companies have in the past just hung on, because they are making so little profit and most of it from just one section of the company. Making a camera that could even have a instant pockectable version for all day ready access on and off the job, that can be hooked up to the various adapters and rigs out there for this level, that can produce results desirable from very expensive ENG cameras, but an image also desirable for cinema, is something that can steal so many sales from the consumer division of competitors, and the prosumer divisions, as to make them loss money. When the company as a while is barely making enough money, this puts them backwards. Now, I did mention some other thing, that I am deliberately not mentioning here, that could put such a dent in their profit as to not make any money at all. So, on the high end, you make the professional division run at a loss, on the low end you amke that division run at a loss, and it is also possible to make the company as a whole run at a loss by wiping out much of the profit otherwise. But, opportunity missed. n This sort of "true" competition, is enough to make companies deliver truly priced enhanced products to stay competitive. The beauty is that using many existing parts/technology, this can be a brand license and design to an OEM camera manufacturer (of which there are a number) We have been working digital cinema cameras for years to this effect.

The problem you get with this other version of the camera, that needed only be 2K plus 4K+ stills, years ago, is that there is not much room for it alongside the fixed scarlet, as the consumer market is heading to 5mp video this year (announced in December, with android OS apps too). To compete you need to raise the spec to a level where there is simply not enough differentiation to stop it stealing too many sales from the fixed. The big mess comes from other things I have recently read about, consumer Canon, and 7d, Mk5 etc, being hacked to do 4K and no moire, and other cameras. Face it, we have people that think Redray is flawless 4K (therefore so why need redcode), just as we have people that think Canon 1080p stills video is great. Of course, we know better, but most people don't think like us, and it is those people that have to be dealt with to get them to recognize the difference otherwise maybe 80%+ of sales are gone. You might think it is outrageous, but this is the sort of thing that will be going on at top consumer electronics companies all the time, and why they would be frightened of real competition upsetting the apple cart. To keep up with the times, is is virtually a matter of moving them, or getting rid of them. wee also have circumstances where vertical integration has put competing companies components into competitors products, making them co-dependent, also the amount of cross ownership in various industries is staggering. Yes, I welcome radical companies like Red and is exactly what I was aiming for when the DIY cinema camera projects that led to Red started, a little bit of real competition helps a lot. We got a number of cameras to market, and they have changed the market, which previously had been raising compression ratios, shrinking sensors and latitude, and raising noise levels. I am here, because Red showed promise of releasing a under 5K pro level camera I had promoted and proposed (previous tot he $100 camera), but there are two other cameras as well. But one camera is a micron based sensor, which I regard as mickey mouse in this realm, but it can actually accept other sensors (we are talking about $2K prices here), the other has a too late altasens camera DIY system. But honestly, unless they beat Scarlet to market, Red is the only game for now among these. So, being here is a vote of my confidence in Red, but everything can change .

 

[Wayne Morellini]

+1 :iagree:


It was RED's biggest mistake in history to release any information
about a new cam called "Scarlet" or "Epic".

RED just speed up the development at Panasonic or Sony. Now,
both released their new products, and RED get rid off a lot of
potential customers. It's a pitty that RED did not catch the bus.
They tried to hold customers with empty promises.

RED was a kind of a new star... but now they turned into a supernova. :violin:


Even this forum here is like a "dreaming platform", talking technical
stuff about rigs and accessories for a cam, which will not be available
for a long, lomg time. Waste of time. :frown2:

There is this saying: Talk is silver, silence is golden.

That's why I decided to take a break until the camera comes out/is announced, then I can catch up on all this stuff. All I need to know in the meantime is when and what, how much and what I need for it to get ready.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

I still have a print out of the original Nov 14th 2008 announcement of the Epic/Scarlet modular camera systems. That was when they first announced they were going to develop them. A two year development cycle is pretty fast track for such an ambitious project.

Whoops, I must have got the year wrong. Nope, found some 2007 threads, but I thought that there was a thread on it the previous year: I've been waiting from around 2004 or 2005 myself, mentioned on line.

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1564&highlight=mini
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1545&highlight=mini
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1771&highlight=mini
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1897&highlight=mini
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3097&highlight=mini
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=3158&highlight=mini

10-2009 release mentioned

http://reduser.net/forum/search.php?searchid=4815421

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6984&highlight=scarlet

Interesting to note that Sony had a 6mp 60fps sensor in around 2006-2008, and Casio released a camera on it. It was one of the new technology ones with interesting performance, I think leading to the latest exmors.


Thanks

Wayne.

 

[LUIS ALBERTO CABRERA]

It is easy to hit delivery dates with something like the AF100 when there is no fundamentally new technology involved. It is just a repackaging job. AF-100 has been in development for almost two years too. Panasonic just didn't tell you about it in advance.
When you are pushing the envelope of what is technically possible to the razor edge, it is not so easy to predict schedules. Personally I have enjoyed the ride so far.
I don't pick my cameras based on marketing ploys anyway. The choice is a complex balance of cost vs features and performance. I want the best possible photographic imaging performance for what I can afford. I have waited for 30 years for an affordable electronic camera that could reasonably replace a 16mm Bolex film camera, a few months more is not a problem.

I am with you David.

 

[Richard_JP]

All of the whining to make if faster, make it cheaper, and make it less capable than it can be has deservedly fallen on deaf ears.

RED prides itself on being open with it's customers, it encourages open discussion and feedback right? Or are they just seeking a bunch of yes men who will tell them it's great whatever they do?? It's not whining, it's feedback.

Make it faster?? No, just stick to some kind of time scale. I mean, if you say it will be out in January, but it gets released in July, that is reasonable. But when your predicted timescale extends by years, expect to get some stick. Would you tell a client that the final edit will be done in 7 days and then take 30 days to fulfill the contract??

Make it cheaper?? Er, nope, just stop increasing the price. Once again, just stay reasonably within the original forecast. If you increase the price by 100%, again expect some criticism.

After all, if RED hadn't shouted about what they were going to do years ago, no one would be giving them negative feedback. It's no wonder RED has some baffled and disgruntled users on this forum. They projected a message that said "we're going to make you a 3k camera for $3k and it will be out next year." A few years later "er yeah, you know how we said we'd build you that amazing camera for that amazing price and you've all been saving for it and holding off from buying a new camera? Yeah, well we're not now. We're making this amazing camera, and it will cost twice as much... Oh and it's not nearly ready yet... Oh and we pretty much don't want you to shop with anymore because you're not professional... and lastly, all the cameras that you can afford are rubbish and you really shouldn't bother using them as it's not RED"

Don't claim it if you can't follow through and make it happen.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

RED prides itself on being open with it's customers, it encourages open discussion and feedback right? Or are they just seeking a bunch of yes men who will tell them it's great whatever they do?? It's not whining, it's feedback.

Make it faster?? No, just stick to some kind of time scale. I mean, if you say it will be out in January, but it gets released in July, that is reasonable. But when your predicted timescale extends by years, expect to get some stick. Would you tell a client that the final edit will be done in 7 days and then take 30 days to fulfill the contract??

Make it cheaper?? Er, nope, just stop increasing the price. Once again, just stay reasonably within the original forecast. If you increase the price by 100%, again expect some criticism.

After all, if RED hadn't shouted about what they were going to do years ago, no one would be giving them negative feedback. It's no wonder RED has some baffled and disgruntled users on this forum. They projected a message that said "we're going to make you a 3k camera for $3k and it will be out next year." A few years later "er yeah, you know how we said we'd build you that amazing camera for that amazing price and you've all been saving for it and holding off from buying a new camera? Yeah, well we're not now. We're making this amazing camera, and it will cost twice as much... Oh and it's not nearly ready yet... Oh and we pretty much don't want you to shop with anymore because you're not professional... and lastly, all the cameras that you can afford are rubbish and you really shouldn't bother using them as it's not RED"

Don't claim it if you can't follow through and make it happen.

Let's be clear - you are not a "client" of RED in the way you suggest in your analogy. They have not promised you anything in a specific time frame and they have been completely and totally honest and up front about what they are doing. As David so eloquently and accurately said, whining and blaming isn't going to make things happen any faster. I believe that some of us see this as a partnership with RED. Yes, feedback about features, priorities, etc. are constructive. Simply grousing about how long it is taking is not helpful to anyone. Yes, we probably all have a "right" to be disappointed. But some folks act as if Jim and company have just been sitting around on their asses smoking cigars and laughing at us for being so gullible. Personally, and from my observation, nothing could be farther from the truth.

What, exactly, would you have them do when things aren't going as they hoped and planned? Would you prefer they not say anything? Well, because of all the whining, it seems Jim is starting to move in that direction but, of course, he can't take back what he said a year or two ago. And clearly, critics have very long memories. OTOH, would you like them to release the camera before it is ready? Just "get it out there" and let the chips fall where they might. Imagine the whining then!!

Cut them a break. These are honest, hard working people who are busting their asses to turn an industry on it's ear. Try supporting that rather than discouraging their efforts. Train yourself to NOT make your business decisions on their projections and shoot with what you have while waiting for them. I assure you there are many, MANY people shooting on the RED ONE (and a few shooting on EPICs) who are extremely happy they hung in there.

Bottom line, what is it you hope to accomplish by whining, complaining and criticizing? If you actually think it helps, I'd like to know how.

EDIT: Question - Do you enjoy working with those clients who stand over your shoulder and complain while you work? "Can't you do it any faster? No, that framing is terrible. It looks overexposed to me. Forget the lighting, just shooting it the way it is. Blah, blah, blah" If you had all the business you could handle, would you actually CHOOSE to work with that client again?

 

[Brian Petrie]

Many of these posts are just long ramblings which make little sense about what Red has not done right or what they should have done. If you are not happy with Red, well good news they are not forcing you to be in their forum or buy their products. Things change, get over it! Anyways, enough with this thread. What do you say Mods??


:closed2ur0:

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

Agreed.