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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Another Remote FF thread...

artbeatsart said:
I'm sorry to say: redrock is a really fascinating idea and not expensive, but for me it wouldn't be professional enough. Saw it at NAB an it feels a bit cheap to me. I understand, for that price but I would love to pay a bit more for a better materialisation, there is a german word for that: haptisch. My feeling is, that Curt and his brothers will find the best solution between price and professionalism.
Click to expand...
this professional"ism" stigma is just bullshit..
 
CVB said:
Bruce, can you clarify what you mean by its more usable for filmmaking? What makes it more usable? If there's something wrong with our design then by all means let me know - I want to make this something that people will use.

BTW.. the white disk is actually a drum. I have found that its a little easier to write the numbers down. With the flat design it seems like the knob is always in the way. Maybe thats just me :)
Click to expand...

I'm by no means a pro focus puller. I'm just a low-budget wannabe-director type. Anyway, when I shoot, this is my process:
1. Rehearse blocking with actors and camera team.
2. Figure out marks. This means I can tell an actor "go to position 1" and the actor will go to a specific spot. At the same time, the camera folks focus the camera for that mark (usually with the Maglite trick since the lenses we use are never quite right ;) and draw a little line on the white disc with a dry erase marker as a reference.
3. Repeat for a couple more positions. Usually no more than 1 or 2 more.
4. Shoot. During the shoot, the actors probably overshoot their marks. Even if there's tape on the floor. If they're really getting into the performance, the chance of them not hitting a mark perfectly is high. The focus puller compensates for this by a fuzzy, intuitive combination of predicting the future, estimating distance, looking at the lines they've drawn on the disc and looking at the distance markings on the lens. This is the magic "follow" part of the follow focus - to help you "follow" an actor (well, you have to predict a little bit, but anyway...). You need to help that human, intuitive process.

So, high on the priority should be things like:

1. A big white disc for marks
2. A really obvious design where you can see where the focus is at a glance
3. Simple ergonomics that work by instinct. Seriously. If a monkey can use your FF to get a banana it's a good thing. Because as a focus puller you're multitasking. You want to focus on trying to predict when the actor's going to take each step. If you can have most of your brain working on that and only a little monkey-sized portion of your brain working on the whole "how do I use this follow focus" thing, you're good.
4. Really responsive good mechanical design with low lag.
5. Reliable communication between FF controller and receiver

Not so high on my list are:

1. Repeatable focus moves - cool, but not that useful because I'm filming actors not remote-controlled robots. If I wanted to film robots I might do it as an all-CG shot anyway.
2. Recording of focus data - cool too, although all plugins I've used to recreate defocuses in post are so divorced from reality that you'll be tweaking a lot anyway to make it look real. Good starting poit though!
3. Breathing compensation - I have one lens that would work well with this - a Nikon 80-200 AF-D. But again, I can fix breathing in post more easily than I can fix a shot being out of focus. Especially if we record focus data...
4. selectable channel contol - cool but might lead to confusion. I like Finner's idea of a slider for the iris - not confusing. Also, how would you pull focus and zoom at the same time? Two of your devices working in tandem?
5. Wireless range - why is this useful? I fly R/C planes but if I ever put a camera on one the chance of me wanting to do a rack focus shot is low.

Cheers and good luck.

BTW I'm sure a whole bunch of people will point out to me that my focus method is wrong. That's cool, I'm here to learn ;)

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
Michele Gavazzeni said:
maybe you already told this but anyway... the controller can store and repeat the movements?
Click to expand...
This unit will not have flash or an SD card so it can't do record and repeat. The pro version that we are going to get out early next year will be able to do record and repeat though. If this unit is used with our moco head it will be able to record and repeat because all of the data is stored on the head.

Jeff Kilgroe said:
I'm not sure what to make of the buttons on the face.... I would want something that could be controlled without looking and without trying to hit flat buttons to toggle modes. But a device that could be picked up and you knew just which function would do what.
Click to expand...
No problem.. I get what you're saying... you want tactile feedback on the buttons. I think recessed might be better than protruding so as to avoid accidental presses.

Jeff Kilgroe said:
I like Finner's suggestion of the slider as a possibility.
Click to expand...
Agreed :)

Jeff Kilgroe said:
Another couple ideas that come to mind are: What about a multi-position dial. By default it adjusts focus.. Push the dial in and it adjusts zoom? Could be spring loaded so you don't have to pull it out. What about a trigger switch that when depressed and you turn the dial it adjusts one funtion. The trigger could even be a 3-position rocker. 1 position is iris, one is focus, 1 is zoom. I guess I just see room for errors when the focus puller may be in a hurry and forget to check which LED is lit over which button or presses a button by accident between takes, etc.. Maybe I'm over-analyzing.
Click to expand...
Its funny.. we had the same idea for the spring loaded dial... I deemed it a pain in the ass mechanically and moved on. You may be onto something with the trigger idea though. I would just be concerned that it would be utterly confusing because you have focus markings on the cylinder then jump to iris and the units are all off. Your idea of three rings sounds interesting-I'm just trying to think about how that would work. I'm thinking a lock out feature of some sort will be necessary to make sure your settings didn't accidentally change when its time to roll.

Purple said:
Hi Curt,
is this correct: the current model has a rotating white cylinder, of which you can normally see about 1/4 to 1/2 of the whole scale ?

If yes, I'd suggest you change that to the standard flat white disc that stays put: much easier to use if your markers stay at the same absolute place at all times, plus then we can always see the full scale.
Click to expand...

The full scale is visible from the side where the index mark is. Have a look at Jeffs previous post.
 
This is just an idea. And since I've never pulled focus in my life it might be pointless. I see that Curt is using the standard fluted type knob on his wireless controler. These are used on regular type follow focus units because the central portion of the front of the knob has to accept external devices such as whips and longer knobs etc. but on the hand held unit this would not be required. So what I'm thinking here is, why not make the shaft so it can accept whatever type of knob you like. I'm looking thru the Jergens (www.jergensinc.com) catalog right now and they have a wide choice of different size and shaped knobs. But the one that strikes my eye is a soft touch ball which I believe would work well for this use as no matter how you are holding the basic controller you hand would fall on the ball in a consistent manner. And it would not freeze to your fingers when working in sub zero locations. lol
Anyhow just a thought.
Oh yeah, and for the more manly (Finner?) type they even sell brass balls.
Also does the shaft pass thru the unit so that the drum and knob can be mounted on either side?
 
Bruce Allen said:
So, high on the priority should be things like:

1. A big white disc for marks
2. A really obvious design where you can see where the focus is at a glance
3. Simple ergonomics that work by instinct. Seriously. If a monkey can use your FF to get a banana it's a good thing. Because as a focus puller you're multitasking. You want to focus on trying to predict when the actor's going to take each step. If you can have most of your brain working on that and only a little monkey-sized portion of your brain working on the whole "how do I use this follow focus" thing, you're good.
4. Really responsive good mechanical design with low lag.
5. Reliable communication between FF controller and receiver

Not so high on my list are:

1. Repeatable focus moves - cool, but not that useful because I'm filming actors not remote-controlled robots. If I wanted to film robots I might do it as an all-CG shot anyway.
2. Recording of focus data - cool too, although all plugins I've used to recreate defocuses in post are so divorced from reality that you'll be tweaking a lot anyway to make it look real. Good starting poit though!
3. Breathing compensation - I have one lens that would work well with this - a Nikon 80-200 AF-D. But again, I can fix breathing in post more easily than I can fix a shot being out of focus. Especially if we record focus data...
4. selectable channel contol - cool but might lead to confusion. I like Finner's idea of a slider for the iris - not confusing. Also, how would you pull focus and zoom at the same time? Two of your devices working in tandem?
5. Wireless range - why is this useful? I fly R/C planes but if I ever put a camera on one the chance of me wanting to do a rack focus shot is low.
Click to expand...

Bruce, Sorry, I didn't see you post.
Thanks for the feedback. Here are my thoughts...

1) & 2) The marking drum that I put in the design is just a guess that I made by mocking up a crude proto in my shop. I looked at cmotion, arri and bartech and it seems like there is no set standard for FF remotes.. some use cylinders, some use disks, some go in between and make a slanted surface. I just picked something that was easy to manufacture and seemed easy enough to see and mark on. If thats not adequate then we can make it more like a standard FF and have a big flat marking ring. Does the size of the remote really matter to anyone?

3) Not sure whats unintuitive about the design.. can you clarify?

4)The latency will be 3ms... thats about 14 position updates per frame at 24 FPS.

5)We are using an encrypted signal from the transmitter to the receiver... The range is about a mile. It doesn't get much more reliable than that.

Now for the things that you don't think are high on your list...
1) & 2) Repeatable focus moves may not be necessary but you guys need to understand that the motors can be used for more than just pulling focus. Here are some other applications: Automated DSLR pan device for doing time lapse and quicktime VR, Motion control platform for rotating small objects - simulate a camera fly around of the object, use three motors and make a mini nodal motion control head, hook a motor up to a mini dolly with your camera on it and do a motion control dolly shot, add cg elements to that mini dolly shot. As you can see... I'm designing the remotes for more than just pulling focus.

3) I agree that breathing compensation might not be of value to those with awesome cinema lenses... I'm looking out for the guys that cant afford decent glass after the spent $17K on the camera body. I understand that you can fix the breathing in post... but thats at the sacrifice of resolution. If you want a full 4K image then you need to fix the problem before it hits the sensor.

4) I agree that the selectable control might be confusing but how would you suggest that I allow people to select which axis to control? I don't want to lock the functionality of a remote to a specific axis and have to make three different versions of the same device. It doesn't seem that complicated to pick a channel and move on.. am I missing something? The multi-axis control was asked a couple times before... have a look back a couple pages and I think you'll find it.

5)The farther the range is the less calls I will get complaining about the lack of range. :)

One other thing is that having the added functionality in the system shouldn't affect you at all... Thats the reason we decided to make a no bells as whistles remote and hold off on the pimped out version.

Keep the comments coming... you guys are really helping me know what matters to you and I appreciate it.
 
chuck colburn said:
This is just an idea. And since I've never pulled focus in my life it might be pointless. I see that Curt is using the standard fluted type knob on his wireless controler. These are used on regular type follow focus units because the central portion of the front of the knob has to accept external devices such as whips and longer knobs etc. but on the hand held unit this would not be required. So what I'm thinking here is, why not make the shaft so it can accept whatever type of knob you like. I'm looking thru the Jergens (www.jergensinc.com) catalog right now and they have a wide choice of different size and shaped knobs. But the one that strikes my eye is a soft touch ball which I believe would work well for this use as no matter how you are holding the basic controller you hand would fall on the ball in a consistent manner. And it would not freeze to your fingers when working in sub zero locations. lol
Anyhow just a thought.
Oh yeah, and for the more manly (Finner?) type they even sell brass balls.
Also does the shaft pass thru the unit so that the drum and knob can be mounted on either side?
Click to expand...

Chuck, the knob that I have in the design is a custom one... I looked at jergens and I didn't see anything that looked reasonable (price wise and features wise) You'd be amazed how much money we save on our BOM by manufacturing our own knob. Another thing is that the knobs are interchangeable in the current design... you cant see it in the picture but the knob is what holds the marking ring in place. We are planning on making several colors and types available... plastic & aluminum and neoprene covered.

The drum can't be mounted on either side.. the only reason I could think of why you would want that would be for right and left handed operation? If so then the buttons would be on the back side of the unit in one of those configurations... Like I mentioned before, there is a index mark on both sides so you can run right or left handed.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
This is what he means... I think this is how Alexander would use it <ducks for cover>.

alfinnerfocus.jpg
Click to expand...

Actually, you're seeing it all wrong Jeff, with me being a Cinematographer, I don't concern myself with focus pulling, so that's how you'd be using it as my AC/Man slave.

Ooooh, burnt! :biggrin:

Curt, the one thing that I find missing from your unit, (keeping in mind the progressive nature of RED's technology) is an illuminated marking band.

Such as this one..

https://www.industryadvanced.com/catalog/product_info.php?&products_id=6

There are many situations where a focus puller will not have adequate light needed to see his barrel marks, so he'll use a tadpole lamp or head lamp, that's just a pian in the ass to use though.

Give us a RED illuminated barrel, that'd be awesome.

I also find a function lock button to be important as you've stated.
 
Alexander Nikishin said:
Curt, the one thing that I find missing from your unit, (keeping in mind the progressive nature of RED's technology) is an illuminated marking band.
Click to expand...

That along with...

Alexander Nikishin said:
Give us a RED illuminated barrel, that'd be awesome.
Click to expand...

Would indeed be great.

Alexander Nikishin said:
Actually, you're seeing it all wrong Jeff, with me being a Cinematographer, I don't concern myself with focus pulling, so that's how you'd be using it as my AC/Man slave.
Click to expand...

Oh, come on... We all know you work alone and you're a "do everything yourself" sort of guy. :bleh:
 
Dude,

This is some serious kit for the price point. If you need repping in the UK PM me and we'll do the deal now!

Mike C
 
Curt,
Good show! Can't imagine what I was thinking about the knob and scale being on the other side. lol
I'm sure you know that the eyes are most sensitive to green light.
 
CVB said:
Holy crap... $675?? Wow,We're in the wrong market.

Done.. I already had that in the plan but I forgot to mention it... I was going to have the immediate area around the index mark illuminated, is that good enough?
Click to expand...

Probably good enough, but wouldn't it be just as easy to illuminate the whole thing? A couple LEDs inside a translucent barrel... I'm just thinking this because outside of the area immediate to the index mark, it might be nice to be able to glance and see where another mark is and think "OK, another quarter turn..."
 
chuck colburn said:
Yeah but who is pulling focus in the dark?
Click to expand...

You'd be surprised at what some AC's are expected to do and where they're expected to work.

Pulling in the near dark is a common thing though, for instance, tracking an actor and steadi op. through a dark alley with pools of light. It happens all the time.
 
chuck colburn said:
Curt,
Good show! Can't imagine what I was thinking about the knob and scale being on the other side. lol
I'm sure you know that the eyes are most sensitive to green light.
Click to expand...

Yes, but isn't red light better for applications within the dark as it doesn't provide as harsh of a contrast as green? And because our eyes aren't as sensitive to it, there's less adjustment for our eyes when looking at something under the red light and then at something out in the dark... Always thought this is why red lights were the choice of astronomers, and military night ops.

Edit> Birger beat me to it. That'll teach me to start a reply and then sign for a FedEx box and come back to finish.
 
CVB said:
Holy crap... $675?? Wow,We're in the wrong market.

Done.. I already had that in the plan but I forgot to mention it... I was going to have the immediate area around the index mark illuminated, is that good enough?
Click to expand...

It would be preferable as Jeff said to have it completely illuminated as is the illuma-knob.

But if it isn't possible to manafacture, your solution is more than welcome.
 
CVB said:
3) I agree that breathing compensation might not be of value to those with awesome cinema lenses... I'm looking out for the guys that cant afford decent glass after the spent $17K on the camera body. I understand that you can fix the breathing in post... but thats at the sacrifice of resolution. If you want a full 4K image then you need to fix the problem before it hits the sensor
Click to expand...


To me this sounds amazingly helpful but I don't have a clue how you can achieve this. Do you crop on the fly by talking to the camera?
 
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