Another fear...

[Zack Birlew]

You know, I'm just on page 5 and I'm sorry if this has been mentioned already, but I have to say that this is pure idiocy.

"Duh, we don't need no cheap wonder camera for an affordable price, we's wants the expensive one that costs as much as a car, ur-hur-hur-hur!"

You don't want a Scarlet with the best features possible?

You don't think there should be a FF35 Scarlet model?

You don't think that there is enough differentiation between RED's lineup?

You want to pay more for a RED camera?(!?)

What is your deal guys!? I'm not a rental company, I'm a filmmaker, the RED Scarlet FF35 is my dream camera, especially for the price. If you're so worried about Scarlet eating up sales of an Epic, don't buy an Epic! There problem solved! When it comes to examining the differences between Scarlet and Epic, if you can't tell the difference between S35 and FF35, you're in the wrong business. Also, I can't believe how many people on REDUser.net don't see the difference between 1-60fps and 1-100+fps. If you don't understand that, then maybe you should just stick with a Sony EX3 and ride this whole 3K+ thing out. Speaking of the EX3, people have griped from day one about there not being a 1080p mode on RED's cameras. Well, now they do have that on nearly all of their models. See, that show's they're listening, so if you want them to jack up prices, take away features, and let them know that you're questioning their judgement about market sense, please keep on talking. RED doesn't cater to the rental business, they cater to creative professionals of all kinds. To ask them to adjust so that rental houses or renting camera owners won't have to deal with deciding what models to get, it just doesn't make sense to what RED has set out to do. If you want an oppressive camera company, go with Sony ("You want what? You don't need that.") or Panasonic ("Pixel shifting, it's good enough for me!") or Canon ("Now, remember guys, we don't want to alienate our old XL customers with this video DSLR thing. Break it.")

Pick out what model you like. If you can afford it, go for an Epic model of some sort and be happy, but don't try to stamp on the less financially fortunate people who have to "settle" with the Scarlet lineup.

 

[Jannard]

You know, I'm just on page 5 and I'm sorry if this has been mentioned already, but I have to say that this is pure idiocy.

"Duh, we don't need no cheap wonder camera for an affordable price, we's wants the expensive one that costs as much as a car, ur-hur-hur-hur!"

You don't want a Scarlet with the best features possible?

You don't think there should be a FF35 Scarlet model?

You don't think that there is enough differentiation between RED's lineup?

You want to pay more for a RED camera?(!?)

What is your deal guys!? I'm not a rental company, I'm a filmmaker, the RED Scarlet FF35 is my dream camera, especially for the price. If you're so worried about Scarlet eating up sales of an Epic, don't buy an Epic! There problem solved! When it comes to examining the differences between Scarlet and Epic, if you can't tell the difference between S35 and FF35, you're in the wrong business. Also, I can't believe how many people on REDUser.net don't see the difference between 1-60fps and 1-100+fps. If you don't understand that, then maybe you should just stick with a Sony EX3 and ride this whole 3K+ thing out. Speaking of the EX3, people have griped from day one about there not being a 1080p mode on RED's cameras. Well, now they do have that on nearly all of their models. See, that show's they're listening, so if you want them to jack up prices, take away features, and let them know that you're questioning their judgement about market sense, please keep on talking. RED doesn't cater to the rental business, they cater to creative professionals of all kinds. To ask them to adjust so that rental houses or renting camera owners won't have to deal with deciding what models to get, it just doesn't make sense to what RED has set out to do. If you want an oppressive camera company, go with Sony ("You want what? You don't need that.") or Panasonic ("Pixel shifting, it's good enough for me!") or Canon ("Now, remember guys, we don't want to alienate our old XL customers with this video DSLR thing. Break it.")

Pick out what model you like. If you can afford it, go for an Epic model of some sort and be happy, but don't try to stamp on the less financially fortunate people who have to "settle" with the Scarlet lineup.

Made me smile...

Jim

 

[Tico Llaurador]

Zack is a good guy, Jim. Honest to goodness filmmaker. He'll buy you a Scarlet FF35 with a Nikon mount. It's in the cards.

Then, he'll be the one smiling.

 

[Cedric Akins]

Great post Zack. I am finacially unfortunate, when compared to others. I can only afford what I can afford. When the fixed lens 2/3" Scarlet comes out that is what I can afford. But I still would like the EPIC MONSTRO.

As for me I have no fear as it pertains to the release of Scarlet/Epic. BRING IT ON!!!! :spidy:

 

[Joel Kaye]

You know, I'm just on page 5 and I'm sorry if this has been mentioned already, but I have to say that this is pure idiocy.

"Duh, we don't need no cheap wonder camera for an affordable price, we's wants the expensive one that costs as much as a car, ur-hur-hur-hur!"

I didn't read the whole thread either but that would be a complete mischaracterization of my thoughts on the topic. (You didn't address me so I don't assume that's what you intended.)

I want the best, cheapest camera possible and RED keeps delivering great stuff on that front.

I just want to be able explain it easily to people. I bet a lot of RED owners feel like RED sales reps when we go out (to shoot or to the bar). So I go out there and defend RED all the time, but back here at the forums I usually note things that I think could be better. The guys at RED might not fully understand that... we're on YOUR SIDE!

The new designs look great and the price/features for Scarlet look great. I just think Scarlet turned into something so far away from the pocket camera it once was that it's really now feels like part of the EPIC modular line to me. So I'm really talking about marketing theory and not knocking RED at all for great hardware and pricing they've come up with.

I'm certainly not asking for crippled features and higher prices. Gotta agree - that would be insane!

EDIT - "Scarlet" seems like it is the 2/3" fixed lens camera. What's the true delineation of Scarlet? The user. It's the dvxuser over on ScarletUser.com that needs a sub $5k camera all in. At $10K-$15K with required accessories Scarlet isn't Scarlet anymore to me. Should that person be hanging out on the Scarlet forum? Or would they be more at home here? Not that I should care about such things, but for some reason those kinda things interest me.

 

[Cedric Akins]

EDIT - "Scarlet" seems like it is the 2/3" fixed lens camera. What's the true delineation of Scarlet? The user. It's the dvxuser over on ScarletUser.com that needs a sub $5k camera all in. At $10K-$15K with required accessories Scarlet isn't Scarlet anymore to me. Should that person be hanging out on the Scarlet forum? Or would they be more at home here? Not that I should care about such things, but for some reason those kinda things interest me.

Hey Joel. Although my post count does not show it, I started here on reduser before the Red One had finished. After the R1 was completed and orders were being delivered I knew it was out of my reach, as far as pricing was concerned, but I was still interested in learning more about the camera and the company. Being that I am "in the business" I try to stay up to date with the latest product information out in the market, as do most people. I then here that Red is planning to release a camera in the price range of $3K that shoots 3K, BINGO that is for me!!! All of the news that Red puts out pertains to thier cameras as well as ALL of thier perspective customers. I feel right at home on either Reduser or Scarletuser. If I remember correctly this is the type of attitude that actually spurred the need for scarletuser back in April and May of this year. It seems as though some of the R1 or perspective Epic owners feel that anyone thinking of owning Scarlet is less professional than they are. My investment may be smaller in amount but it is no less important to me than yours is to you. Please understand that.

 

[Joel Kaye]

If I remember correctly this is the type of attitude that actually spurred the need for scarletuser back in April and May of this year.

I'm not really following your point exactly.

I'm pretty sure the reason they created ScarletUser was because the noise level from ScarletUsers was really high at the time (right after NAB) and the moderator wanted to separate that noise away from the RED forum as it was really detracting from the experience here.

I definitely am NOT saying someone who spends less money is less professional. In fact, I'm usually the guy defending SLR lenses, off brand lights, dollies, steadicams etc. so I think I'm actually on the same side as you there.

To me this thread is more of a product positioning discussion really. So... strategically either Scarlet is a different product with different users that REQUIRES a different forum or it's not. I think when they created the Scarlet forum it WAS, but now that no longer is the case. Maybe the Scarlet forum is no longer needed? If it is, then why?

 

[Tom Lowe]

You know, I'm just on page 5 and I'm sorry if this has been mentioned already, but I have to say that this is pure idiocy.

"Duh, we don't need no cheap wonder camera for an affordable price, we's wants the expensive one that costs as much as a car, ur-hur-hur-hur!"

You don't want a Scarlet with the best features possible?

You don't think there should be a FF35 Scarlet model?

You don't think that there is enough differentiation between RED's lineup?

You want to pay more for a RED camera?(!?)

What is your deal guys!? I'm not a rental company, I'm a filmmaker, the RED Scarlet FF35 is my dream camera, especially for the price. If you're so worried about Scarlet eating up sales of an Epic, don't buy an Epic! There problem solved! When it comes to examining the differences between Scarlet and Epic, if you can't tell the difference between S35 and FF35, you're in the wrong business. Also, I can't believe how many people on REDUser.net don't see the difference between 1-60fps and 1-100+fps. If you don't understand that, then maybe you should just stick with a Sony EX3 and ride this whole 3K+ thing out. Speaking of the EX3, people have griped from day one about there not being a 1080p mode on RED's cameras. Well, now they do have that on nearly all of their models. See, that show's they're listening, so if you want them to jack up prices, take away features, and let them know that you're questioning their judgement about market sense, please keep on talking. RED doesn't cater to the rental business, they cater to creative professionals of all kinds. To ask them to adjust so that rental houses or renting camera owners won't have to deal with deciding what models to get, it just doesn't make sense to what RED has set out to do. If you want an oppressive camera company, go with Sony ("You want what? You don't need that.") or Panasonic ("Pixel shifting, it's good enough for me!") or Canon ("Now, remember guys, we don't want to alienate our old XL customers with this video DSLR thing. Break it.")

Pick out what model you like. If you can afford it, go for an Epic model of some sort and be happy, but don't try to stamp on the less financially fortunate people who have to "settle" with the Scarlet lineup.

This is what I have been saying for weeks.

Please let Jim be the business man and decide about "product differentiation."

It really goes against the whole Red mentality to be arguing for features to be removed from Red cameras that other people might want to buy and use.

 

[Cedric Akins]

I'm not really following your point exactly.

I'm pretty sure the reason they created ScarletUser was because the noise level from ScarletUsers was really high at the time (right after NAB) and the moderator wanted to separate that noise away from the RED forum as it was really detracting from the experience here.

Fair enough. I kind of remember that the discussions were growing rather fast concerning the Scarlet. And yes I could see how it was taking away from the Red1's focus.

I definitely am NOT saying someone who spends less money is less professional. In fact, I'm usually the guy defending SLR lenses, off brand lights, dollies, steadicams etc. so I think I'm actually on the same side as you there.

The less any of us HAVE to spend the better our own personal budgets feel.

To me this thread is more of a product positioning discussion really. So... strategically either Scarlet is a different product with different users that REQUIRES a different forum or it's not. I think when they created the Scarlet forum it WAS, but now that no longer is the case. Maybe the Scarlet forum is no longer needed? If it is, then why?

As I understand it both Scarlet and Epic are being placed in the market for the varing need of professionals in the industry. Being that they both share the same modular accessories they are being marketed as complements to one another. Some studios will prefer to take Scarlets and use them as "crash cams" or B-roll cameras. Then purchase an Epic or two for principal photography. This way you could still use any of the accessory modules for any of the cameras if you needed to do so. At least that is my understanding. It helps to keep the manufacturing costs low for the consumer and the company.

 

[Joseph Ward]

You know, I'm just on page 5 and I'm sorry if this has been mentioned already, but I have to say that this is pure idiocy.

"Duh, we don't need no cheap wonder camera for an affordable price, we's wants the expensive one that costs as much as a car, ur-hur-hur-hur!"

You don't want a Scarlet with the best features possible?

You don't think there should be a FF35 Scarlet model?

You don't think that there is enough differentiation between RED's lineup?

You want to pay more for a RED camera?(!?)

What is your deal guys!? I'm not a rental company, I'm a filmmaker, the RED Scarlet FF35 is my dream camera, especially for the price. If you're so worried about Scarlet eating up sales of an Epic, don't buy an Epic! There problem solved! When it comes to examining the differences between Scarlet and Epic, if you can't tell the difference between S35 and FF35, you're in the wrong business. Also, I can't believe how many people on REDUser.net don't see the difference between 1-60fps and 1-100+fps. If you don't understand that, then maybe you should just stick with a Sony EX3 and ride this whole 3K+ thing out. Speaking of the EX3, people have griped from day one about there not being a 1080p mode on RED's cameras. Well, now they do have that on nearly all of their models. See, that show's they're listening, so if you want them to jack up prices, take away features, and let them know that you're questioning their judgement about market sense, please keep on talking. RED doesn't cater to the rental business, they cater to creative professionals of all kinds. To ask them to adjust so that rental houses or renting camera owners won't have to deal with deciding what models to get, it just doesn't make sense to what RED has set out to do. If you want an oppressive camera company, go with Sony ("You want what? You don't need that.") or Panasonic ("Pixel shifting, it's good enough for me!") or Canon ("Now, remember guys, we don't want to alienate our old XL customers with this video DSLR thing. Break it.")

Pick out what model you like. If you can afford it, go for an Epic model of some sort and be happy, but don't try to stamp on the less financially fortunate people who have to "settle" with the Scarlet lineup.

Thank you!

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

I just want to be able explain it easily to people. I bet a lot of RED owners feel like RED sales reps when we go out (to shoot or to the bar). So I go out there and defend RED all the time, but back here at the forums I usually note things that I think could be better. The guys at RED might not fully understand that... we're on YOUR SIDE!

Providing new technology and features RED chose to be ahead of time. That means that accompanying software, hardware, workflow and knowledge of it has to keep up with that leap. Jumping on RED ride meant accepting this offset, which will "align" eventually.

I understand your point, but if in the end all the problems we are left with are explaining the differences in RED's lineup...I'll be perfectly okay with that.

 

[Mark Pedersen]

I hope RED is reading all of this good market research. Here's what we know:

1. Everyone wants the Monstro chip for its higher dynamic range.

2. A lot of people want to continue to use S35 cine glass.

3. Only some people will find regular use for very high speed cameras.

All of this leads me to the conclusion that the one camera RED didn't introduce is the one that would garner the vast majority of their future sales: An Epic (or even a Scarlet) with a S35 Monstro chip. Make that camera, price it as the RED One reward, and Jim would have the slam dunk winner of the decade. No ifs, ands, or buts.

I'd buy two right now and have no doubts I was getting the camera I really need/want.

I mean, come on. Jim has already said that the RED One will be getting a Monstro upgrade down the line. If RED can find a way to stuff a Monstro into the RED One, then surely they can find a way to make a Monstro in S35 (which is a larger chip than the RED One's Academy S35).

I'm really surprised that they have drawn this line (no S35 Monstro) in the sand. It just doesn't make any sense and leaves a very large hole in the market for some other company to exploit.

Stephen

Couldn't agree more (accept for the high speed part). Build an S35 Monstro with 13 stops of DR and high speed options PLEASE!!

M

 

[Jannard]

You guys crack me up. Who drew a line in the sand? Someday there will be a Monstro sensor for S35 EPIC. And it will go in the RED ONE. But this one will take some time to develop.

Please read my SS post again. The bad assumptions are starting to wear on me.

If you need the perfect camera in every way, just sit back and wait a few years. But do me a favor and stop posting stupid stuff until then...

I need a timeout.

Jim

 

[Raul Gonzo]

The title of this thread says it all: "fear"
Fear of the unknown & unnecessary speculation.
I say we close this thread and stick to productive threads.

 

[Shawn Nelson]

Jim, situations like this are why God gave us whisky

Frankly, my Red is enough. Now, I'll be first in line to claim EpicX #27, but if Red was all there was going to be for five years, I'd be happy.

 

[Jannard]

Monstro is very experimental sensor technology. As of today it will not work in a smaller sensor... hence no S35 Monstro. I am quite sure that as time goes on we will figure out a way to make it work, but for now our lineup is what it is. The silly thing is that there is nothing that comes close to Mysterium-X in the market. It is better, faster, more DNR and a major improvement over the RED ONE which seems to be doing just fine in the right hands.

The "I want, I want" is really frustrating when we are delivering so much, so fast, for so little. We bend over backwards for our customers. We are developing at a rapid pace when others are closing the doors or shutting off development dollars.

You have no idea what you are talking about when you ask for a Monstro sensor in an S35 package today. The insult is when people infer that we are holding back something. All I can say is that you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground when you post this stuff.

If there is something in our program that you can afford and figure out how to use... wonderful. But please direct your uneducated and unreasonable requests to 1-800-SONYUSA.

Have a great Holiday Season.

Jim

 

[Esteban Sosnitsky]

Monstro is very experimental sensor technology. As of today it will not work in a smaller sensor... hence no S35 Monstro.
Jim

I didnt know that!
Thanks for explaining. Really appreciated.:biggrin:
This sole post has cleared a lot of doubts I had.
I hope I have enough resources to upgrade once the time comes.
In the meantime, I will get the most out of my R1. A machine that changed my life. Thanks again.

 

[ChristopherKenworthy]

You have no idea what you are talking about when you ask for a Monstro sensor in an S35 package today.

I was guilty of begging for this a few weeks ago, because I want to use Monstro with Ultra Primes at S35. But once I found out we could just window the FF35 to S35, I was happy. More than happy.

I think for many of us, once we knew Monstro was coming, we all wanted to skip Mysterium-X and go straight for Monstro. But when I actually look at the results we're getting now, I wonder why we're so eager. I've worked with a few people using the Red One, and with the right DP and the right post path, the the Red One we have now is bloody amazing. So, any improvement is a pure gift.

 

[Stuart English]

Shooting in S35 with Monstro

Shooting in S35 with Monstro

I was guilty of begging for this a few weeks ago, because I want to use Monstro with Ultra Primes at S35.

But once I found out we could just window the FF35 to S35, I was happy. More than happy.

Yup, just put a S35 PL lens mount on a FF35 Scarlet or FF35 EPIC and you have what you want... and more for any occasions when S35 isn't enough.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

I've worked with a few people using the Red One, and with the right DP and the right post path, the the Red One we have now is bloody amazing. So, any improvement is a pure gift.

You hit the nail on the head, and this is why Jim is getting upset. Some of the posts have come off as greedy, unrealistic, and probably to a certain extent insulting to Jim and his business model. Jim set the bar high with Red One, and now the expectation is that they'll go higher, jump through any hoops people ask of them, and do it at a speed that even the big boys can't do with all their resources.

People will post their opinions, that's the way forums work. But I like having Jim around here because it's his show and he's the best resource of information regarding the products. Why piss him off and send him on a leave of absence?

I know what Red One is capable of. I expect Mysterium-X to be the next step in the evolution and to improve on some of Mysterium's weaknesses (which in many case are still better than a lot of other cameras). Monstro will come in due time and people will upgrade if it fits there needs.

In the meantime, we can all have a lot of fun shooting high quality images with Red One.

Everybody take a deep breath and enjoy the holiday.