Announcing WEAPON DRAGON 6k Magnesium

[Jarred Land]

When I hear this I get a little sad that I'm only getting a MG (awesome as the camera and the deal my be) does this mean CF will have considerably better compression performance? This compression question has been killing me all week but no one ever seems to discuss it, I assume that is because final specs are not known at this time.

Yes I said it even before the announcement, The Carbon Weapon is not just for looks. The insides are dramatically faster... they need to be to be able to keep up with 8K. We don't have hard specs because we still are squeezing. We are at 8K 5:1 @ 24fps right now on 8K dragon.

But don't worry, the boards fit inside the 6k MG. When the 8K dragon sensor is ready, you will be able to keep the MG body and just upgrade the Boards and the Sensor to get the full 8K Carbon performance. It will cost more of course than going straight to 8K Carbon right now, but the performance will be the same and 6K and 8K will be the distinction, not just the material.

 

[Nick Morrison]

It is one hell of an expensive sensor to make that takes a very long time to make and needs to be made in batches so condensing as many orders into this week gets that first order as big as it can be at the factory which saves both of us money... so that can't be extended. The 8k orders have blown way way way past our expectations and we really can't delay that first batch as it is not fair to everyone that already got their orders in.

That said.. We did a piss-poor job of explaining things clearly and changed so many things this week via your feedback, that we probably owe you guys at least through the weekend to figure things out.

Love how flexible you guys are. Speaks volumes to how much you LISTEN.

Very cool.

Can't wait to see 8K footage!

 

[Tony Lorentzen]

I've asked this before, but wouldn't it lower overall cost if everyone upgraded to the EXACT SAME interiors and exteriors instead of keeping two lines of insides and two lines of exteriors? It seems much more complicated than it needs to be. Streamline the process and maybe you would be able to upgrade everyone to the Carbon Weapon at more or less the same price as the Magnesium version?

 

[Chris Luker]

Getting clarification and even huge changes (like the $5k NAB discount now permanent!) helps a lot!
Thanks Jarred and Brent for sorting through our hand wringing and such...
It's still out of my range for now, but to know that I can still upgrade in time, and not really lose any perks, helps out a lot.

 

[Thomas Koch]

I'm so confused. I don't know what the costs are at all on any of this. Do we get 15,500 for Epix-X or $15,500 plus $5000 = $20,500? I don't need $5000 accessory credit, I need that $5000 off the purchase price.

When it was said originally, and it was going to cost me $20,000 to upgrade I went looking for other options at NAB and just now decided to check in, and see it might be different now.

I wish this was so much easier to figure out what is going on.

 

[Alex Boothby]

Thomas there's lot's of clear info on this page:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...ROM-MY-BOMBSQUAD-REP-ON-WEAPON-UPGRADE/page14

Start on page 5 and scan for posts by Brent and Jarred.

 

[Philip Lanyon]

Thanks Jarred, this clears some things up for me. and thanks for listening, the card upgrade program is generous indeed.

Right now the difference between 6k magnesium and 8K carbon is $25K, $35K by the end of the weekend. Are you saying that to go from magnesium 6K to magnesium 8k will be more than $35k? Or will just the sensor cost be more than the $20K after this weekend?

 

[Sergio Perez]

I think what most of us on the current Weapon Magnesium budget would want is the reassurance we get to go Vista 8K. We know the internals are different to the CF version, but, truth be told, we were on the A tier bandwagon with our Epic Dragons, and suddenly we feel like we "dropped" to second tier on a similar budget... Having said that, no other camera and system truly compares to a Red, and the experience of shooting and producing content with it cannot be compared with other cameras. And lets not forget the community and Red peers that really help constant development and interchange between other owners/operators, its invaluable specially in countries where cinema culture and industries are developing. (my case)

 

[Milan S.]

I think what most of us on the current Weapon Magnesium budget would want is the reassurance we get to go Vista 8K. We know the internals are different to the CF version, but, truth be told, we were on the A tier bandwagon with our Epic Dragons, and suddenly we feel like we "dropped" to second tier on a similar budget...

It kind of feels like "upgrading" from Epic to Scarlet but at the same time knowing that your new camera will reach the end of life a year later. It's a double kick in the nuts.

 

[Patrick Grossien]

It is one hell of an expensive sensor to make that takes a very long time to make and needs to be made in batches so condensing as many orders into this week gets that first order as big as it can be at the factory which saves both of us money... so that can't be extended. The 8k orders have blown way way way past our expectations and we really can't delay that first batch as it is not fair to everyone that already got their orders in.

That said.. We did a piss-poor job of explaining things clearly and changed so many things this week via your feedback, that we probably owe you guys at least through the weekend to figure things out.

Thinking out loud... If I get your info right, this might be interesting for you guys, too in terms of producing batches of the sensor.

What about if you offer a second batch 8K group buy at around the time the sensor is available?

I picture this scenario: NAB purchasers get first batch. At the time the sensor is out in the wild and NAB upgrades are running, we already had the first 8K R3D from folks to marvel at, you could pre announce a few weeks in advance, a group buy week offering everyone a discount who puts in their order during that week (maybe IBC if possible).
To be fair to the NAB purchasers this should be somewhat less than the NAB discount. But if still significant enough, I guess people might jump at it to save a few $K. Or get the discount split to 50% discount and 50% store credit.

20K is not peanuts, when compared to the camera prices themselves, so I guess there might be a few more people interested in this sort of thing. Especially when they had time to evaluate the image and scramble together some money.

You could also ask for a minimum amount of purchasers needed to make this deal happen as is the norm with other group buys - which doesn't need to be disclosed but could be disclosed in percentage maybe.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Sergio Perez]

Well, since we are throwing ideas, here goes:

Lets look at this in a practical perspective: The ones going Carbon and that had the budget for the initial 8K Vista sensor are those that are probably doing Hollywood Cinema, Internacional Commercial Cinema, International Broadcast series and TV, Internacional TV Commercials, Top International Stars Music Videos. These individual's work is top tier, its visible worldwide at a big scale. They have the budget to invest in it, but their return of investment is almost immediate: 1 or 2 jobs with it and the camera and the sensor pays for itself.

The Magnesium people range from independent filmmakers, Emerging Filmmakers in other markets than the US, TV Commercial shooters, Artists, Cine Photographers, Small shops whose return of investment is not as immediate as the owners of CF Weapon.

Both these groups of people produce work of significance. Group A feeds us POP culture. Feeds us our Entertainment mostly. Its what pays more. Group B however is the (often) more creative crowd. Its from this group that appears the new Peter Jacksons, the new Inarritu's, the new Deakins- and, often, big surprises.

Before, in Epic and Scarlet Days, to go Scarlet, which should be your "Indie Filmmaker", or "entry level" Red, one could enter for about 14k with a working setup. For Epic, it was , in the very early days, 27500 for the Brain, which would escalate to 34500 aprox for a decent working setup (Similar to current Weapon Magnesium Pricing). The 34500 Pricing is a big stretch for most, but it is still "attainable", at least once, for the independent filmmaker, artist or Small shop. That is what I personally did back in 2011 in Stage 4. I believe many small shops, independents did the same. I think that pricing and the embracing of the independent crowd worldwide made the Red brand even stronger and respected in the world of Cinema. Probably not so much in the High End, "Elite" world, but in the alternative, or other international markets, it broke ground: Red empowered a new generation of filmmakers, which in return became spokespersons of the brand.

All this to say that currently probably the independent, not fast return of investment crowd is a bit disappointed, not by the generosity of being able to upgrade, or by being at the back of a long queue, or having certain ergonomic compromises, but because the option given to them to get the images they were expecting from Red, who always embraced them, is through an upgrade to a price range they can't possibly create a return of investment that is reasonable. An Epic Dragon Artist who was seeing all the possibilities of Vista and 8K knows he can't pay 50 000 plus, specially after investing 10500 (with armour) to a sensor upgrade. basically, he will have to go "Scarlet", which is the notion most are getting of upgrading to Weapon Magnesium. And that, at a 18.5K price range (for non M epics) Obviously the performance of Magnesium is much more than a "scarlet"- just said it as a figurative analogy.

So what are the suggestions?

My suggestion would be to Come out with the 8K sensor exclusive for Epic CF for A YEAR. After that, most CF Epic owners had their Return of investment made. Then opening it up for the Magnesium users- but not crippled, not "Scarlet". That way, Everyone is happy, i think! just tossing things around!

 

[Adam Howden]

RED - Jim, Jarred,

Thanks for your answers and to clarify, I understand the additional ASICs etc

BUT it seems no one, including my Bomb Squad rep can answer this for me.

Why is the Magnesium hobbled to 60 fps? - most likely the ASICs boards etc from a technical stand point but from a logical stand point? I just don't get it...

Have Red considered the fact the jobs are going to shoot above 60 fps and if the camera shoots above 60 fps then is it just those clips will not be recorded in both RAW and Pro Res, dunno seems silly to me.

Also seems too complicated and a bit short sighted in regards to how people might use the camera.

C'mon guys please just make the magnesium capable of recording the same frame rates in pro res as the CF can? Just makes sense to me, I'm sure I'm not alone here????

 

[Peter Majtan]

Why is the Magnesium hobbled to 60 fps? - most likely the ASICs boards etc from a technical stand point but from a logical stand point? I just don't get it...

Nothing is hobbled. The MG version is doing its best. CF version has much more powerful (and a lot more expensive) processing units inside, which allows it to achieve higher fps...

:sifone: Peter

 

[Mattias Åkerlind]

Jarred,

any chance for a small expander module with:

• 10 Gbps Ethernet port that allows tethered full bandwidth (300 MB/s) streaming of RED RAW to a computer for live/realtime grading, quality control, direct recording to RAID storage.
• UHD/4K RGB output for monitoring, HDMI 2.0/SDI (6G/12G)

Is the Weapon CF hardware capable of supporting this (in particular 10-Gig ethernet)? Needs to know before pressing the order button... :thumbsup:

 

[Jeremy Torrie]

A lot of thoughtful contributions here.

Really liked a lot of what Sergio said about us creatives, and agreed with Patrick about some manner of period where we can get additional funds together for 8K. Even though I locked in early Monday for our Epic-M upgrades it doesn't feel like the quantum leap when we went from Epic to Dragon. I certainly want to be able to go 8K.

On the question of 60 FPS...I wonder if there could be a setting within the Magnesium which could increase your frame rates but make ProRes or .r3d selectable (i.e. one or the other). Personally ProRes doesn't matter for me -I have always taken files into RC-X, done the one light pass and then export for import into Avid. Just as there's a data throughput limitation when one records HDRx track compared to one data stream being recorded, I assume we could ask the same with Magnesium?

 

[Elsie N]

Well, since we are throwing ideas, here goes:

Lets look at this in a practical perspective: The ones going Carbon and that had the budget for the initial 8K Vista sensor are those that are probably doing Hollywood Cinema, Internacional Commercial Cinema, International Broadcast series and TV, Internacional TV Commercials, Top International Stars Music Videos. These individual's work is top tier, its visible worldwide at a big scale. They have the budget to invest in it, but their return of investment is almost immediate: 1 or 2 jobs with it and the camera and the sensor pays for itself.

The Magnesium people range from independent filmmakers, Emerging Filmmakers in other markets than the US, TV Commercial shooters, Artists, Cine Photographers, Small shops whose return of investment is not as immediate as the owners of CF Weapon.

Both these groups of people produce work of significance. Group A feeds us POP culture. Feeds us our Entertainment mostly. Its what pays more. Group B however is the (often) more creative crowd. Its from this group that appears the new Peter Jacksons, the new Inarritu's, the new Deakins- and, often, big surprises.

Before, in Epic and Scarlet Days, to go Scarlet, which should be your "Indie Filmmaker", or "entry level" Red, one could enter for about 14k with a working setup. For Epic, it was , in the very early days, 27500 for the Brain, which would escalate to 34500 aprox for a decent working setup (Similar to current Weapon Magnesium Pricing). The 34500 Pricing is a big stretch for most, but it is still "attainable", at least once, for the independent filmmaker, artist or Small shop. That is what I personally did back in 2011 in Stage 4. I believe many small shops, independents did the same. I think that pricing and the embracing of the independent crowd worldwide made the Red brand even stronger and respected in the world of Cinema. Probably not so much in the High End, "Elite" world, but in the alternative, or other international markets, it broke ground: Red empowered a new generation of filmmakers, which in return became spokespersons of the brand.

All this to say that currently probably the independent, not fast return of investment crowd is a bit disappointed, not by the generosity of being able to upgrade, or by being at the back of a long queue, or having certain ergonomic compromises, but because the option given to them to get the images they were expecting from Red, who always embraced them, is through an upgrade to a price range they can't possibly create a return of investment that is reasonable. An Epic Dragon Artist who was seeing all the possibilities of Vista and 8K knows he can't pay 50 000 plus, specially after investing 10500 (with armour) to a sensor upgrade. basically, he will have to go "Scarlet", which is the notion most are getting of upgrading to Weapon Magnesium. And that, at a 18.5K price range (for non M epics) Obviously the performance of Magnesium is much more than a "scarlet"- just said it as a figurative analogy.

So what are the suggestions?

My suggestion would be to Come out with the 8K sensor exclusive for Epic CF for A YEAR. After that, most CF Epic owners had their Return of investment made. Then opening it up for the Magnesium users- but not crippled, not "Scarlet". That way, Everyone is happy, i think! just tossing things around!

There's no need to wait a year... CF 8k Weapon buyers, if not 1 percenters are at minimum 5 percenters. ROI will either be immediate or most likely, unimportant.

Early adoption will be reward enough.

 

[Jarek Zabczynski]

I relayed hoped the HDMI would be 2.0, any chance that will change?

 

[Mattias Åkerlind]

I relayed hoped the HDMI would be 2.0, any chance that will change?

If Weapon CF can do 4K ProRes (as indicated) it's certainly capable of 4K output. Only thing missing is a HDMI 2.0 transmitter.
I really hope for an expander module with 4K output and 10-Gig Ethernet. Would love to get a comment from RED on this...

 

[Maik Müller]

If Weapon CF can do 4K ProRes (as indicated) it's certainly capable of 4K output. Only thing missing is a HDMI 2.0 transmitter.

4k over HDMI is possible since 2009 / HDMI1.4 with up to 30fps @ 3840*2160, so probably even current EPIC/Scarlet could MAYBE in some way output 4k over HDMI (without scaling, just 1:1, when set to that resolution).

I highly doubt Weapon will be limited to 2k by hardware, software is probably not there yet. And i guess it is not one of the highest priorities for RED right now.

 

[Maik Müller]

A lot of thoughtful contributions here.

Really liked a lot of what Sergio said about us creatives, and agreed with Patrick about some manner of period where we can get additional funds together for 8K.

Agree with that. And it's amazing to see this is actually a real discussion - with Jim, Jarred, RED taking notes and considering ideas. Thats great, everytime, again and again.

Even though I locked in early Monday for our Epic-M upgrades it doesn't feel like the quantum leap when we went from Epic to Dragon. I certainly want to be able to go 8K.

Let's face it, everyone wants that VV-sensor, because thats what will have the biggest impact on footage.

But for now it's just the top-tier who gets access to that - and thats the difference to the sensor-upgrades in the past, especially if you look at the move from MX to Dragon-6k, which was even accessible for Scarlet-owners.

I guess thats lots of people didn't expect.