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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Announcing Weapon 6K Carbon Fiber

I think probably what people want to avoid is Frankenrigs. Now that Arri is recording "4k" Prores, people who work in that world will want to be on a level playing field. So they won't want to strap an external 4k capable Prores recorder to the camera if it can be had onboard.

Probably the bigtime customer base asking for this would want 6k Prores 4444hq with RLF and wb baked in and no raw recording at all.

the dragon sensor and the prores workflow.

Even though the raw is the way to go, most maybe just want to pass Prores around in post.

please don't abandon raw. It's the cornerstone.
 
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Jarred Land said:
OK Phil... 2K ProRes Only recording granted.. It is dumb.. and we will shake a stick at you if we catch you doing it.. but we realize sometimes our customers don't get to make those kind of decisions... producers do. As long as you promise to shake a stick at them when they ask to throw away the good master, then we will give you that one.

4K ProRes is not an impossibility. Don't take that as a "we can do it", but it is not "impossible" on the Carbon Weapon.

Assume you are getting 2K ProRes.... make your purchase decisions based off of that.

I will get back to you on that well before it is time for you to pay to take delivery. We have some pretty damn good engineers.
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That should help a good chunk of people making that particular decision. And if you get that done, well high fives all around!

You won't catch me doing it. 2K outside of getting files to clients and editors is a bad word for me :) REDCODE RAW is my whip. My creative life and world are all about 4K, 4K+, and 8K at this point.

Weapon will reveal itself in being the production camera that productions have been looking for. I see that and feel that.
 
David Battistella said:
I think probably what people want to avoid is Frankenrigs.  Now that Arri is recording 4k Prores, people will want to be on a level playing field. So they won't want to strap an external 4k capable Prores recorder to the camera if it can be had onboard.

Probably the bigtime customer base asking for this would want 6k Prores 4444hq with RLF and wb baked in and no raw recording at all.

the dragon sensor and the prores workflow.

Even though the raw is the way to go, most maybe just want to pass Prores around in post.

please don't abandon raw. It's the cornerstone.
Click to expand...

REDCODE RAW is the right choice. The smart guys know that.
 
Jarred Land said:
REDCODE RAW is the right choice. The smart guys know that.
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100% right
But i have no issues in seeing that an onboard prores-recorder + 3D LUTs is a huge time-saver for larger workflows with several people working shifts on the edits.

It will all mostly end up in redcode RAW or a trancode to ACES EXR, but the way there can be done easier and better for many with prores directly on the cam.

THANKS!
 
Crazy.

As I am typing this I am creating 4K masters from 6K Raw on my desktop computer. I could not really have dreamt of this when I had a DVX100 in my hands not that long ago, like less than a decade! What is 6K, like, 42 times the size of a DV frame?

hahahahahahahha
 
Speaking as rental house with 10 Dragons and who knows the benefit of Raw the lack of 4K Prores will be less important than the frame rates.

Customer: I hear you have the new Red and it does Prores now?
Me: Correct
Customer: What's the maximum frame rate?
Me:120fps
Customer: what does the Amira do?
Me: 200fps
Customer: OK can I pencil an Amira please?

Probably 80-90% of all shoots in the UK (excluding Films)shoot either 1080/2k Prores on Alexa/Amira.
I'm really hoping this time round that can be changed.
 
Jeff Brown said:
Speaking as rental house with 10 Dragons and who knows the benefit of Raw the lack of 4K Prores will be less important than the frame rates.

Customer: I hear you have the new Red and it does Prores now?
Me: Correct
Customer: What's the maximum frame rate?
Me:120fps
Customer: what does the Amira do?
Me: 200fps
Customer: OK can I pencil an Amira please?

Probably 80-90% of all shoots in the UK (excluding Films)shoot either 1080/2k Prores on Alexa/Amira.
I'm really hoping this time round that can be changed.
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Even if they could do 300fps at 2K in RAW?
 
Phil Holland said:
That should help a good chunk of people making that particular decision. And if you get that done, well high fives all around!

You won't catch me doing it. 2K outside of getting files to clients and editors is a bad word for me :) REDCODE RAW is my whip. My creative life and world are all about 4K, 4K+, and 8K at this point.

Weapon will reveal itself in being the production camera that productions have been looking for. I see that and feel that.
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quick question Phil, would you say that the 2k pro-res is created from sensor crop or down res from the 6K. I would be concerned with the quality of sensor cropped
 
Giles Harvey said:
quick question Phil, would you say that the 2k pro-res is created from sensor crop or down res from the 6K. I would be concerned with the quality of sensor cropped
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It is a scaled version of the format you are shooting in. 6K to 2K, 5K to 2K, etc....

If all goes well and if the RED engineers can make it work here's how I'd love to see it happen in camera.

- REDCODE RAW recording
- REDCODE RAW + Simultaneous 2K ProRes Recording
- ProRes 2K through 4K recording

So essentially a format page that allows you to select which formats you are recording.

On the ProRes Setup Menu there should be an option to choose which resolution based on your capture format you want to go. 4K, 2K, etc. Also there should be a menu likely on that page with tick boxes to allow for the Look and/or LUT to be baked into that ProRes file. Meaning you can monitor with say a 3D LUT on REDlogFilm and have the ProRes file not incorporate that and just be REDlogFilm and you can manipulate that after the fact or simply bake that in for quick shooting needs.

We'll see what RED can do in if, how, and when they can add these features. But right now we know it can do the Simultaneous .R3D and .MOV in 2K which is bad ass for dailies and all that.

It's a huge big step here really either way. One that saves time and money on set. Those dailies/proxies being generated and going right over to editorial, your DIT, or Data Manager is going to please many people.
 
2k prores is great for starters. I can then encourage the online offline approach. But it also means that the smaller jobs that don't require 4k I'm covered. It actually means I don't have have to buy a separate camera for that work. Totally agree on LUT's baked or not. So in short I'll be happy with spec as is but 4k pro-res will simply put it on a level. Jeff Brown makes a valid point on frame rate though. Is it possible to get get 200fps plus in pro-res ?
 
Valid points on all sides of the argument. But the overarching argument seems to hinge on the nirvana of one camera perfect for everything. We're not quite there yet as far as I'm aware. But in general, isn't the "everyday" hypothesis for DOP's:
Acquisition (sensor) quality, Workflow productivity, Resolution ...?

So we start with what the sensor delivers in image quality. We look at the workflow productivity (in Weapon's case, adding ProRes workstreams out of the box), and then consider what resolutions (native) can provide us in content delivery options outside of the Workflow productivity.

2K ProRes seems to address an immediate workflow concern, a wide range of content delivery options - and then there's the R3D backstop for 4K+ delivery off the same backbone.

So now we turn to the "frame rate" argument. Where that's a mitigating factor in circumstances where the end (viewer) material is critically dependent on it; again, we're talking a workflow input as the output will be irrelevant of the frame rate (but 'resolution' will still play a part in it, depending on if it's online, HD broadcast, cinematic 4K DCI or even IMax etc.). Artistically, documentary-wise, or story-telling wise, frame-rate is an important element of 'input' into the content generation process. So...

In such cases, does the priority then become:
Acquisition (sensor) quality, Framerate, Workflow productivity, resolution ... ?

So now we're seeking a great sensor (RED, Alexa, both great)... a high native frame rate (again, both great).. and we're stuck on the workflow productivity issue around this 120 vs 200 fps ProRes argument. The next most important thing is resolution. If you're mastering for HD 1080p or online I think the issue of ProRes workflow input framerates becomes obvious. 200fps is better than 120fps, if that really matters.

However - if resolution flexibility after the workflow flexibility is important.. the concept of delivering +2K experiences. 4K DCI or UHD for example. You now have a very real argument on your hands over native output resolution versus workflow flexibility.

I've seen a few posts around how 4K (UHD) is 'years away' from establishing a foothold like 1080p. I find it hard to believe those people haven't walked into any local retailer carrying TVs and seen <$1k UHD tv's are now the norm. Adoption rates are hinged on content producers. So therein lies our challenge.

I say this with the caveat I'm a content strategist, writer and director. Not a DOP. So admittedly I hold no weight nor authority on the image acquisition game. I'm just thinking about audience and outcomes. Most of them, rather brutally, don't care what it was shot on, what resolution, what lenses, what workflow or what format. They just seem to care about the experience in their chosen viewing medium. iPad, desktop, HDTV, UHD TV, cinema or iMax.

So to me the issue of framerate as an input - whether native or flexibly as part of a workflow productivity issue - is moot unless you couple it with the intended output format, as dictated by your intended audience.

And if everything said herein is moot; then why the hell am I +$100k in debt on amazing acquisition gear, where BMC <$10k equipment is perfectly fine for online and HDTV 1080p audiences..?
 
So new CF upgrade package includes integrated media bay (Mini Mag).

http://www.red.com/store/products/weapon-woven-cf-upgrade-package-deposit

To what extent, if any, do existing Dragon owners already on the MiniMag Side Module benefit from the upgrade vs. those on legacy 1.8" SSD side module?

Or did we just blow some extra cash moving to the MiniMag module preemptively.. ??? Most pre-NAB2015 comms suggested having adopted MiniMag media would reduce the pain. Understand our MiniMag media itself is now useful on Weapon CF. But our side MiniMag module is now entirely irrelevant in the upgrade process vs people upgrading from a 1.8" side SSD module at the same time? Feeling a tad short-changed if that's the case..!!
 
"Feeling short changed" should become the bumper sticker:)

I think I heard that the mini-mags did offer compression improvements to the existing fabulous Dragon. So they were certainly not a waste. The side module hmnmn. I think they would need to really offer you just a brain so you could add your back on - if that even works???
 
Tarquin Cardona said:
"Feeling short changed" should become the bumper sticker:)

I think I heard that the mini-mags did offer compression improvements to the existing fabulous Dragon. So they were certainly not a waste. The side module hmnmn. I think they would need to really offer you just a brain so you could add your back on - if that even works???
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Short-changed is hardly applicable to RED's overall upgrade pathways to existing owners. But yeah, a little lost as to what upgrade benefits our Side MiniMag module now represent in the overall scheme of things.
 
Question what all do we ship back for our Upgrade? Mount? SSD Module? etc.

I have a buddy that wants to buy a Dragon Scarlet and i would love to help him get on his feet by selling some components to him for his purchase but i don't know what has to go back to Red.
 
Phil Holland said:
And to the second point, it's not just about ProRes David. 3D LUTs, processing power, data speed increases, smaller form factor, technology advancements, etc. are more of the story. There's a lot going on actually in this brain redesign.

And if you all recall how things played out over the years with each new camera firmware update, I have a feeling we are just getting started with Weapon.
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You can buy a 3D Lut box for under £1000. And its probably more useful given that the Weapon still only has one SDI output. Prores recorders are cheap and everywhere. More processing power? 6k frame rates are the same so its just the addition of prores. ‘Technology advancements’ sounds incredibly vague and a desperate attempt to list something significant. Half a stop better? I bet its still not ISO 2000 as clean as 800 though.

The upgrade should be half the cost of what it is. Either that or the Magnesium should have the same frame rate specs as the CF.
 
ignition said:
Short-changed is hardly applicable to RED's overall upgrade pathways to existing owners. But yeah, a little lost as to what upgrade benefits our Side MiniMag module now represent in the overall scheme of things.
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The benefit is you invested in a media platform (MINI MAGS) that is Weapon compatible, and not EOL. Whereas those with 1.8" mags are far behind you, both financially (they have to buy new media) and investment wise (their 1.8 mags are now sadly worth much less).

The half glass full answer is...you invested wisely.
 
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