Announcing the S.A.L.T. (Southland Alternative Lens Test)

[Roberto Lequeux]

Politics should not be allowed. This should be 33% scientific, 33% images and 33% persona opinion. If someone thinks X set isn't worth a dime or heaven sent, then that should be allowed and completely up to them.

Is any company putting pressure on anyone involved? I am confused... what politics? Was there a disagreement regarding the structure of the publication? If anyone wants to retract anything they said they should be allowed.

That said I am still very disappointed about the lack of MP testing AND extremely grateful for all the work and time put into the testing, opinions and post work.

Looking forward to checking it all out. Can't wait.

 

[Matt Uhry]

I am taking possession of a set of RPPs but they are not mine.
I have yet to decide where my money is going.

After testing the RPP's @ SALT I am phone stalking Brian Byrne and have already wired the money. I hope to pick up the set @ Red the end of next week.

You'll see in my written opinions that while not every aspect of the RPP's was perfect, they do tend to run towards the front of a pack of lenses that were much more expensive.

The big downside with the RPP's is probably the size and weight. We now live in a world where you'll put on the Optimo Rouge to do handheld or steadicam and use the RPP's on the dolly. Strange. At least it looks like the cameras will get lighter and better balanced.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Yea, imagine your lens gaining ~3lbs while your camera can drop over 10lbs when using external sound...

 

[Shawn Nelson]

After testing the RPP's @ SALT I am phone stalking Brian Byrne and have already wired the money. I hope to pick up the set @ Red the end of next week.

You'll see in my written opinions that while not every aspect of the RPP's was perfect, they do tend to run towards the front of a pack of lenses that were much more expensive.

The big downside with the RPP's is probably the size and weight. We now live in a world where you'll put on the Optimo Rouge to do handheld or steadicam and use the RPP's on the dolly. Strange. At least it looks like the cameras will get lighter and better balanced.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

Did you reserve a set back in 2007?

 

[Matt Uhry]

Did you reserve a set back in 2007?

Yes kind of - actually Feb. 2008. I had a wait and see attitude about it.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

 

[Brook Willard]

Everybody with grand theories about the delays... trust me, there's nothing big going on. We've all had our responses written and formatted for weeks now, it's just a matter of them getting posted.

The reason they haven't been posted yet is that we promised the manufacturers that they'd see the results first. As for why that took so long to happen... I'll be honest, that's a good question. Evin has been handling all communication with the manufacturers.

The collective writeup on the day is about 10,000 words in length. Add on all of the stills [Say 50 lenses, several stills per lens] and any footage that gets posted and you've got a pretty significant undertaking.

It's ready - has been for a while. The 15-page email went out to all of the manufacturers today.

Is any company putting pressure on anyone involved? I am confused... what politics? Was there a disagreement regarding the structure of the publication? If anyone wants to retract anything they said they should be allowed.

No pressure from any company.

That said I am still very disappointed about the lack of MP testing AND extremely grateful for all the work and time put into the testing, opinions and post work.

Sort of a mixed message there. Interestingly enough, the only politics involved in the entire test had to do with Master Primes.

There is a precedent with L.A.R.T. regarding waiting patiently. In the end the results were good for those who participated and no one else. Those who waited paitiently got nothing useable out of it because the info took so long to be made available. S.A.L.T. appears to be heading in the same direction. I'm not holding my breath.

While similar in name, the execution and organization of the tests was completely different.

The results are in and posted in the moderator section of these forums. When Evin gets the information sent to all of the manufacturers, we'll move the thread into this forum.

I am interested in David Mullen's opinion of the lenses. Will that be included?

Yes, David [along with the rest of us involved in the test] have written our thoughts on the test. They are standing by.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

Sort of a mixed message there.

Not mixed at all Brook. I thought someone might say something about this again. Why can't I be grateful for all the work everyone did, and disappointed at the same time that a set of lenses was missing? Those feelings are in no way shape or form exclusive of each other.

In fact if I were exited about the line up of people that participated (and I am, you included) I would then in fact be even more disappointed that they didn't get to test out MPs!

I would l-o-v-e to hear how in the hell MPs are holding the publication back. I assume and HOPE it is because many of you recognize the test will never be complete without them. I will now go cross my fingers and hope you are planning to somehow include them before publication.
:emote_popcorn:

 

[Phil Jordan]

I am concerned about if the test shows how the lenses did with a larger image circle for the future Epic 5K. It is nice to know how they do with a current R1 but I am buying lenses for now and the future. I have a set of RPPs on order because I know they will work with current and future cameras and I am curious which others also hold resolution and illumination to a 32mm image circle, not just cover it or not.

 

[Matt Uhry]

I am concerned about if the test shows how the lenses did with a larger image circle for the future Epic 5K. It is nice to know how they do with a current R1 but I am buying lenses for now and the future. I have a set of RPPs on order because I know they will work with current and future cameras and I am curious which others also hold resolution and illumination to a 32mm image circle, not just cover it or not.

Hi Phil, I think you are concerned about the wrong things.

1) Most of the newer glass did surprisingly well at 32mm and larger image circle, even the zooms - Matt Duclos has the exact figures.

2) If being future proof means covering a big sensor, don't buy the RPP's. Get the Ruby 14-24 and the Zeiss Compact Primes which will fully cover you on the 43mm image circle FF Epics. That would be the most "future proof" move you can make if coverage is your main concern.

3) I believe that most of my future work will be done in formats that are more related to Motion Picture Super 35mm frame sizes rather than FF35mm still "Vistavision" frame sizes. If you are a professional background plate / VFX element shooter ( I'm actually friends with one ) don't listen to me and go as big as you can.

4) If there is a legit. need for large data / large format and money to pay for it I'll rock MF lenses on a 9k Epic 645. That should be a pretty cool camera.

I'm fully down to buy the Red Primes, but that decision is not based on their coverage which is more, less, and equal to the competition depending on who you pick.

Matt Uhry
www.mattuhry.com

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

new lens obsession

new lens obsession

I am concerned about if the test shows how the lenses did with a larger image circle for the future Epic 5K. It is nice to know how they do with a current R1 but I am buying lenses for now and the future. I have a set of RPPs on order because I know they will work with current and future cameras and I am curious which others also hold resolution and illumination to a 32mm image circle, not just cover it or not.

Let me explain something here about lens design:
There are always compromises involved and one of them is center sharpness vs corner sharpness- you basically get either one or the other,
Generally mp(motion picture) lenses emphasize more on center sharpness at the corner's cost because in motion most action goes on in center of the frame.
Still lens design calls for corner sharpness because after taking a picture one looks at the whole frame carefully so a falloff would be easily seen on a photograph as opposed to motion footage where there simply is no time to analize whole frame.
These compromises are much improved with aspherical design that allows for field curvature correction. Or you could stay with spherical design but the lens would become huge. I think this is the case with Master Primes(if they have aspherics they must be mild )
Anyway that new fad with corner sharpness is a bit moot and one should not forget that first and foremost image sharpness in center and up to 70%field is imperative for motion picture work. Corner sharpness is secondary and nowhere near as important.
Jacek Zakowicz, optitek-dot-org

 

[Jarred Land]

Anyway that new fad with corner sharpness is a bit moot and one should not forget that first and foremost image sharpness in center and up to 70%field is imperative for motion picture work. Corner sharpness is secondary and nowhere near as important.
Jacek Zakowicz, optitek-dot-org

I think your missing the whole DSMC point there Jacek... If you havn't noticed, there is a shift in the fashion world right now starting to move towards pulling frames from motion to use as not only covers, but full blown printed editorials, in which case edge sharpness certainly is not moot.. but your point is.

 

[Phil Jordan]

Jacek, sorry to disagree with you. Corner sharpness is important when you are asking a 4K lens (28mm coverage) to go to 5K (larger image ciurcle). If the sharpness is down at the edges of a 28mm image circle it is completely lost and not useable at 32mm.

I agree with Matt sort of but I don't like the Zeiss CF lenses being non uniform T-stops especially slow at the wide end.

For me the only choices are Master Primes and RPPs and I can't afford MPs.

 

[Evin Grant]

This is an excertp from my SALT article:

My opinion on corner performance…
A lot has been made of lens corner performance recently in light of the newer Red sensor being larger and requiring a larger image circle. Although I think this is an important consideration to be taken into account, I would also state that only very infrequently do objects appear at the very corners of the cinema frame in a fashion that requires high detail representation. In fact many times the “shape” a particular lens adds to the image is desirable to subtly focus the viewers attention in the frame. This is of course a personal preference but it’s important to note that all the lenses tested here out performed the Red sensor in the center easily.

I would also add that as far as the published Epic specs can tell us the only 5K aspect ratio that will be outside the S35 image circle is 2:1. 1.85 and 2:40 should be comfortably within normal S35 imaging circles.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

This is of course a personal preference but it’s important to note that all the lenses tested here out performed the Red sensor in the center easily.

WHOA! :shocked: All?

Was that in the very center or a "large" center area? And was it a small difference or slight?

Please do spill as much beans as possible while we patiently/impatiently wait for the full thing.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

converging industries

converging industries

I think your missing the whole DSMC point there Jacek... If you havn't noticed, there is a shift in the fashion world right now starting to move towards pulling frames from motion to use as not only covers, but full blown printed editorials, in which case edge sharpness certainly is not moot.. but your point is.

You are correct, Jarred, however you surely are fully aware of still cameras/ still lens combinations used for video today. Technogies are converging from both ends. As for stills I don't think that full frame cameras with clean 2000 ISO 21Mpixel sensors and light weight, ultra wide, fast and inexpensive(think $1500 14-24 Nikkor) full frame lenses can be ignored.
Shift in the fashion world? I would call it more of a curiosity....
And I'm not sure that still photographers are ready to switch to big manual primes either.
But I know that you are way ahead of all this and can't wait to see what is cooking in Red's kitchen now......:thumbup1:
Jacek Zakowicz, optitek-dot-org

 

[Jannard]

Jarred's point shouldn't be overlooked here IMHO. Not only is corner resolution a factor when considering a 32mm image circle (not just the fact that there is some light out there) but these cameras will also be used for still capture and stills from motion capture. At that point it is not arguable whether or not corner resolution is important. Not necessarily more important than other factors, but one that can't be ignored.

To Jacek's point, we have several magazine shooters giving us feedback as they have switched to shooting both motion and still in their shoots. Greg Williams (Esquire) is just one of them. Motion in online magazines seems to be a pretty solid bet for the future.

I guess the question is... why not have a full frame of high resolution? Getting it is harder than giving it away.

Jim

 

[Evin Grant]

I really don't thing these things should be discussed as absolutes. You may very well want sharp corners for a still shoot or shape for a commercial or something totally dreamy like Baltars for a dream sequence. There are no right answers, only tools.

 

[Jannard]

I really don't thing these things should be discussed as absolutes. You may very well want sharp corners for a still shoot or shape for a commercial or something totally dreamy like Baltars for a dream sequence. There are no right answers, only tools.

I agree completely... but you need information to know what each tool is capable of.

Jim

 

[Jarred Land]

Shift in the fashion world? I would call it more of a curiosity....

I agree that the curiosity has stemmed from the photographer.. but that curiosity has been quickly noted by the agencies, directors, and producers, which in the end have alot more pull then they probably should

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

4K lens?

4K lens?

Jacek, sorry to disagree with you. Corner sharpness is important when you are asking a 4K lens (28mm coverage) to go to 5K (larger image ciurcle). If the sharpness is down at the edges of a 28mm image circle it is completely lost and not useable at 32mm.

I agree with Matt sort of but I don't like the Zeiss CF lenses being non uniform T-stops especially slow at the wide end.

For me the only choices are Master Primes and RPPs and I can't afford MPs.

FYI there is no such a thing as a "4K lens"
There are Academy lenses that cover, well, Academy format(27.16mm circle) and those will clip(100% vignetting) 32mm so they are not usable and 35mm full aperture(motion picture) lenses that cover 31.1mm diagonal-in reality 32mm and these would not have a problem since the coverage is so close.
If you are trying to use academy lenses for full (5k) you'll get poor results- it's pretty obvious...
All the newer lenses cover full aperture because Academy format is pretty much dead since they started using tape recorders for sound- and it's been a while...:001_tongue:
Jacek Zakowicz, optitek-dot-org