American DITs... ugghhh

[Adrian Jebef]

1000% agree. The current scale rate - equal to a camera operator - often causes negative feelings with other members of the camera department. There are, of course, some jobs that require a serious, high-level, skilled ninja DIT - but those guys always work above scale rate anyway. The fact that the scale rate is so high in relation to the department is a key reason many producers are asking "can we get away without a DIT? So and so just did it on XYZ series.". Lowering the scale rate will actually benefit DITs.

Give me one example of when lowering a union member's pay actually helped them.

Remember that we are in an industry that makes money. Good money. Ridiculous amounts of money. We should be getting paid more, not less.

 

[M Most]

Give me one example of when lowering a union member's pay actually helped them.

Remember that we are in an industry that makes money. Good money. Ridiculous amounts of money. We should be getting paid more, not less.

I think Mark's point is that some of the resistance to having the position filled at all on a number of productions would be lowered if the rate weren't as high as it is. I'm not sure I agree with that, but I think that's what's being said.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

I think Mark's point is that some of the resistance to having the position filled at all on a number of productions would be lowered if the rate weren't as high as it is. I'm not sure I agree with that, but I think that's what's being said.

My point is really the point you made.

I have no issue with the scale rate - other than it's realtion to the scale rates of other members of the camera department.

Again, not all DITs are created equal. Just like not all 1st AC's are created equal - but it's sure easier to get away with being a "below average DIT" than it is to get away with being a "below average 1st AC".

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

At the most basic level we need to better define the hierarchy - digital utility, data manager, DIT, on set colorist comes to mind - each with an appropriate expectation of skills and fair rate.

IAC, the real answer is to make the DIT position part of post. The post vendor can put together the right hardware, establish an efficient workflow, train the on set person and put it in their bid. All the producer should have to do is move a portion of the production budget to the post budget. Michael Cioni at Li is doing this to some extent with the Outpost carts and his training programs.

Cheers - #19

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

At the most basic level we need to better define the hierarchy - digital utility, data manager, DIT, on set colorist comes to mind - each with an appropriate expectation of skills and fair rate.

IAC, the real answer is to make the DIT position part of post. The post vendor can put together the right hardware, establish an efficient workflow, train the on set person and put it in their bid. All the producer should have to do is move a portion of the production budget to the post budget. Michael Cioni at Li is doing this to some extent with the Outpost carts and his training programs.

Cheers - #19

the only problem here is, you no longer work for yourself, and no longer negotiate your own rate.
You work for the production hired post company, who will always bid lowball

and I think the outpost carts thing is total BS. A post Company trying to take kit rentals from hard working DIT's who have put together their own carts..

This hasnt hit my market yet, Im in the commercial world and maybe this is more tv/film world.

btw... Hi Blair hope your doing well.. long time no talk

 

[Dustin Cross]

DIT as part of post is a bad idea. Local 700 does not seem as good at taking care of its people as local 600 is.

DIT working closely with post is very important.

Local 600 really needs to certify DITs, but that will never happen.

Local 600 needs to define what a Digital Loader is and what a Digital Utility is. Everything else is a DIT. Right now producers hire a Digital Loader expect them to work way beyond their skill level and everyone on set calls them a DIT. That is part of the problem.

The other big problem is completely unqualified people joining 600 as a DIT. That really hurts the position.


Dusty
Local 600 DIT

 

[Adrian Jebef]

My point is really the point you made.

I have no issue with the scale rate - other than it's relation to the scale rates of other members of the camera department.

Again, not all DITs are created equal. Just like not all 1st AC's are created equal - but it's sure easier to get away with being a "below average DIT" than it is to get away with being a "below average 1st AC".

Once we discuss Union rates we're talking about specific job duties and expectations. The scale rate is the same regardless if the person hired is good or bad at their job. Suggesting that rates should be lowered because there are a few inexperienced DITs out there is counter-intuitive. Let the market dictate who gets rehired. Don't punish the majority that perform their jobs well.

This is really an issue of perception and accounting. The DIT looks expensive on paper but when he or she catches a problem, or adds efficiency into the workflow pipe, or is the ONLY one on set that is truly paying attention to the BIG picture (from acquisition to conform) that same DIT pays for himself 7-fold. Recognizing that kind of value can sometimes be hard for some of our producers out there...

 

[Adrian Jebef]

IAC, the real answer is to make the DIT position part of post.

Actually the DIT has made Post a part of Production because it:

-Offers more creative control

-Is more efficient

-And saves money


The paradigm has shifted Post to the Set because it makes sense and was inevitable. We ain't going back. We're marching forward!

 

[Detlev Eller]

... Maybe I should charge that rate the aforementioned douche is charging too and see what happens

... you´ll make more money!

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

IAC, the real answer is to make the DIT position part of post.
Cheers - #19

Strongly disagree. The whole concept of a DIT is to work with images during prodution. It is, as it should be IMO, part of the camera department. However, if this person is NOT supporting the camera department on the set, during the shooting process ... but rather back at a production office or hotel room coloring and/or trasncoding files - to me - that is not a DIT. That's a dailies colorist or an assistant editor. That is no different than sending your material to a lab. You just put the lab in a hotel room or office. Which is great - just not what I consider a DIT's role.

 

[Dustin Cross]

Strongly disagree. The whole concept of a DIT is to work with images during prodution. It is, as it should be IMO, part of the camera department. However, if this person is NOT supporting the camera department on the set, during the shooting process ... but rather back at a production office or hotel room coloring and/or trasncoding files - to me - that is not a DIT. That's a dailies colorist or an assistant editor. That is no different than sending your material to a lab. You just put the lab in a hotel room or office. Which is great - just not what I consider a DIT's role.

Agree 100%


Dusty

 

[Michael Cioni]

"OUTPOST carts thing..."

"OUTPOST carts thing..."

the only problem here is, you no longer work for yourself, and no longer negotiate your own rate.
You work for the production hired post company, who will always bid lowball

and I think the outpost carts thing is total BS. A post Company trying to take kit rentals from hard working DIT's who have put together their own carts..

This hasnt hit my market yet, Im in the commercial world and maybe this is more tv/film world.

I'm sorry you feel our contribution to the production community is BS, Zakaree. I invite you to get to know Light Iron and work closer with our company and its support team. And if you were to liaise with our routine operators or become familiar with our business model, I'm fairly confident you wouldn't classify Light Iron in such a boorish way.

But for the REDUSER public record:
• Light Iron OUTPOST operators negotiate their own rates. No exceptions.
• Light Iron kits are always managed by freelancers who negotiate and manage their their own classifications and respective titles & scales
• Light Iron works closely with union leaders/representatives in the interest of protecting all operators
• Many Light Iron jobs utilize personally-owned DIT personal carts (in lieu of Light Iron Lily Pads) and use OUTPOST carts for processing only
• Nearly all Light Iron OUTPOST & Lily Pad operators return for multiple jobs (some operators on their 10th feature or 30th commercial)


As CEO of Light Iron, I want to personally stress to you how important the welfare of OUTPOST operators is to our company and clientele. The pattern of returnee operators who earn a good living running Light Iron systems is fairly strong proof. This is thanks to the best support and workflow team the industry has to offer. But while the above list of facts about our business model may be misunderstood by DITs such as yourself, it is not arguable.

On the other hand, what is unfortunately arguable is the difference between what you consider an "OUTPOST" and what I consider a "DIT Cart." I'm confident whatever conventional investments you have made on your personal cart are valid for the services you provide to your commercial customers. On the contrary, OUTPOST systems are not DIT carts and they provide a more comprehensive service. So I recommend you know exactly what infrastructures you are referring to before qualifying them as "BS."

regards,
michael

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

all i know is ive had friends who have had their gear taken off a job and the outpost carts used instead..

kinda sucks when a DIT is banking on getting his gear on the show..

but again i really dont know much about what you do as its out of my market place.. I apologize for calling out BS without a little bit more knowledge and would be interested in seeing the system and learning more about it

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

all i know is ive had friends who have had their gear taken off a job and the outpost carts used instead..

kinda sucks when a DIT is banking on getting his gear on the show..

but again i really dont know much about what you do as its out of my market place.. I apologize for calling out BS without a little bit more knowledge and would be interested in seeing the system and learning more about it

The real question is ... did your friends have the gear to do everything that the Outpost systems did? Most likely they did not. I have a lot of experience with creating on-set workflows and solutions - been doing it since 2007 and have plenty of solid feature credits. LightIron has a LOT more feature and episodic TV credits for their outpost systems. There's a reason for that. I was critical of Outpost systems until I got the full tilt demo and hands on. For long form, episodic TV and feature films that want sync, graded dalies in multiple flavors, iPad video assist with meta-data tagging done on set - very, very hard to match an Outpost system in price and performance. If more DITs were investing and engineering such systems - there would be o demand for an Outpost system.

 

[Dustin Cross]

I have not had problems with Light Iron carts, but I have seen DITs loose their quality personal gear off shows to be replaced by complete crap from post facilities or rentals houses who give kit away for follow on post work or with camera rental.

Places doing that ate completely devalueing DIT kit to almost nothing. I have a problem with places doing that.




Dusty

 

[M Most]

I have not had problems with Light Iron carts, but I have seen DITs loose their quality personal gear off shows to be replaced by complete crap from post facilities or rentals houses who give kit away for follow on post work or with camera rental.

Places doing that ate completely devalueing DIT kit to almost nothing. I have a problem with places doing that.

Well, the vast majority of established colorists "had a problem" when Blackmagic devalued Resolve from a $150,000 tool down to a free one. Many established camera rental companies had "a problem" when Red came along and devalued their entire inventory of video cameras. And a lot of established post businesses have "a problem" with DIT's claiming the ability to "do dailies" when that doesn't always seem to include shot by shot checked double system sound sync, multiple deliverables, QC, Internet uploads, multiple watermarks and windows, and multiple verified LTOs. But all of those things are being done regardless of the feelings of those whose businesses or livings are being impacted by them. The fact is, things change. Everything is competitive, and when something new comes along, something established is affected. When you're the one doing the affecting, you feel pretty good about your newfound ability to compete. When you're the affected, it doesn't feel particularly good and one often cries "foul." But this is the world we now live in. One must learn to accept the changes and look for the opportunities wherever they might be.

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

I have not had problems with Light Iron carts, but I have seen DITs loose their quality personal gear off shows to be replaced by complete crap from post facilities or rentals houses who give kit away for follow on post work or with camera rental.

Places doing that ate completely devalueing DIT kit to almost nothing. I have a problem with places doing that.




Dusty

this is more or less what i was referring too..

I only Pinned out light iron carts because thats what i have seen (just the cart... i didnt see it operational)

so yes.. this is what I am against..
rental houses getting into the DIT cart game

I just built a real nice set up will post photos in about 2 weeks.. its still being built

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

Well, the vast majority of established colorists "had a problem" when Blackmagic devalued Resolve from a $150,000 tool down to a free one. Many established camera rental companies had "a problem" when Red came along and devalued their entire inventory of video cameras. And a lot of established post businesses have "a problem" with DIT's claiming the ability to "do dailies" when that doesn't always seem to include shot by shot checked double system sound sync, multiple deliverables, QC, Internet uploads, multiple watermarks and windows, and multiple verified LTOs. But all of those things are being done regardless of the feelings of those whose businesses or livings are being impacted by them. The fact is, things change. Everything is competitive, and when something new comes along, something established is affected. When you're the one doing the affecting, you feel pretty good about your newfound ability to compete. When you're the affected, it doesn't feel particularly good and one often cries "foul." But this is the world we now live in. One must learn to accept the changes and look for the opportunities wherever they might be.

dont have a problem with this actually.. Im not a dailies person.. Im not POST..
I get the beauty of having onset dailies.. but dont pass that off to the DIT.. that is a post position and thus should be a separate person, and the DIT should take care of his DP and either do, or supervise all the data, and color.. and let someone else (who isnt camera dept) do the dailies..
different cart, but this person should be paid out of the post budget.

 

[Dustin Cross]

Well, the vast majority of established colorists "had a problem" when Blackmagic devalued Resolve from a $150,000 tool down to a free one. Many established camera rental companies had "a problem" when Red came along and devalued their entire inventory of video cameras. And a lot of established post businesses have "a problem" with DIT's claiming the ability to "do dailies" when that doesn't always seem to include shot by shot checked double system sound sync, multiple deliverables, QC, Internet uploads, multiple watermarks and windows, and multiple verified LTOs. But all of those things are being done regardless of the feelings of those whose businesses or livings are being impacted by them. The fact is, things change. Everything is competitive, and when something new comes along, something established is affected. When you're the one doing the affecting, you feel pretty good about your newfound ability to compete. When you're the affected, it doesn't feel particularly good and one often cries "foul." But this is the world we now live in. One must learn to accept the changes and look for the opportunities wherever they might be.

I have to agree with most of what you are saying. For me it is producers pushing DITs to do part of the work of the Lab and Asst Editors to do the rest. Not a fan of it, but it is reality.

I make sure to let them know I am just applying our onset look and transcoding to required codecs. If I have to sync sound I let them know that is sound and camera do not have exact timecode, it will be out of sync and asst editor will need to fix on their end. I also tell them DITs are not allowed to transcode only circle takes, we batch everything. And I do have to make LTO tapes on set some times.

It is really a pain in the ass when I am on set tethered to camera, livegrading, downloading media, syncing sound, transcoding to DNxHD and H264, and making LTO tapes and they want me to move 20 times per day. I really like jobs when I get to work with a Lab and so do the Asst Editors I know.

Then again I have been on jobs where the lab is days behind and everyone wants to see dailies, so I sync and grade several days of footage and render out H264s and put them on some USB drives before lunch one day and everyone is amazed at how awesome these HD dailies look compared to the 320x640 crap they get from the Lab.

I guess we can't win for trying.



Dusty

 

[M Most]

Then again I have been on jobs where the lab is days behind and everyone wants to see dailies, so I sync and grade several days of footage and render out H264s and put them on some USB drives before lunch one day and everyone is amazed at how awesome these HD dailies look compared to the 320x640 crap they get from the Lab.

If that is the case, either the production is working with the wrong lab/post company, or they're turning around 10 hours of material a day. Which is possible. But it's pretty unlikely that you would be able to sync, grade, and render H264 files of that kind of material in a morning, regardless of what you're using to do it. And I would point out that a near set approach neatly solves all of those issues.