And I'm sure post houses are "against" DIT's getting into the dailies creation game. It's called competition, and it's called change. Sometimes it's in your favor. Sometimes it's not. Nobody "owns" their little corner of the business, even if they're the ones who invented it. If you're going to work in a changing industry that involves technology of any sort, you'd better get used to it.
Welcome to our community
Be a part of something great, join today!
American DITs... ugghhh
- Thread starter Ivan Kovax
- Start date
And I'm sure post houses are "against" DIT's getting into the dailies creation game. It's called competition, and it's called change. Sometimes it's in your favor. Sometimes it's not. Nobody "owns" their little corner of the business, even if they're the ones who invented it. If you're going to work in a changing industry that involves technology of any sort, you'd better get used to it.
Steve Sherrick
Well-known member
My hats off to those who can do all of that and more. Especially with multiple company moves involved. Personally, my best experiences have been with tasks delegated to multiple people. DIT handling the signal flow on set, working closely with DP to make sure they are happy and that the video signal is consistent throughout the set. If it's a low key job, perhaps doing media management as well. Having a specific person doing media management is even more ideal. Better chance they will be properly backing up media, checking for errors, creating proper paperwork, etc. Dailies is best handled near set or in a lab by a dailies colorist or tech(if just applying LUTs).
Can all of this be done by one person? Sure. There are a lot of people who are way smarter than me, work much faster than me, and are probably a lot more qualified than me. But it's still a lot to ask one person to do on a busy set.
I think more needs to be done to clarify these roles, so there is less confusion amongst producers and quite frankly within our camera departments.
Dustin Cross
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2007
- Messages
- 1,240
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
- Location
- Austin, Texas
- Website
- www.sandust.com
Competition is fine. The problem I run into is Producers get an amazing deal on DIT kit for one job from the Post facility or Camera house. Then on the next job they only budget $250/week for $60,000 or more worth of kit because that is what it cost on the last job. I tell them my kit costs much more than that per week and then they get mad and say I am trying to rip them off. At that point I usually just move on. That conversation happens more and more these days.
I really wish IATSE could step in and define the roles a little so it is not the wild west on jobs, but that is not going to happen. We are going to have to solve the problem ourselves with technology and hopefully by DITs and Post working together.
Dusty
I really wish IATSE could step in and define the roles a little so it is not the wild west on jobs, but that is not going to happen. We are going to have to solve the problem ourselves with technology and hopefully by DITs and Post working together.
Dusty
Mark L. Pederson
REDuser Sponsor
Sure. Agreed.
However - It's the wild west out there - lots of cowboys, lots of different ways to get from A to B and still many conservative folks in positions of power - afraid to adopt a new, better processes or workflows because they don't want to get fired, etc. Fact is, SOME DITs do a better job than SOME post facilities - seen it many times - even on a large show with a big bduget and a "big iron" post facility. But some DITs should not be allowed to work with images. ALL DITs will tell you they are experts in their field - that's the only way they can get hired. So good luck getting anyone to agree on "clarifying roles".
That said - more should be done on putting information out there that details pros and cons and cost/time benefits of various combinations of workflows and roles.
It's also important to accept the inevitable for the majority of feature films and high-end episodic TV production they will transition to color being adjusted on camera (non destructive) via wifi using mobile devices with simple UI's for curves, lift, gamma, gain and RAW adjustments. And edit proxy media will be created on camera downstream from that non destructive color adjustment in realtime - which facilitates on-set playback as well. Mutiple watermarked or various burn-in versions will be (and are already) generated in the cloud. Anyway you slice it - they way most folks do it today - isn't how we will do things in a year or two.
The lab will be on the camera.
Other opportunites will be created as the use of on-set mata data will drive the furture of the editorial and creative process.
Last edited:
Dustin Cross
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2007
- Messages
- 1,240
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
- Location
- Austin, Texas
- Website
- www.sandust.com
I have been dreaming of this since Red first mentioned the ability three years ago, but I still don't have it. Codex is the only company doing anything like this and they are hard wired.
Please! Please! Please! give me the ability to adjust metadata wirelessly in camera!!!!!!!!!!
Dusty
Dustin Cross
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2007
- Messages
- 1,240
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
- Location
- Austin, Texas
- Website
- www.sandust.com
IATSE has said they will not define the roles because they do not want technology to change and the strictly defined roles not fit with the new technology. It is impossible to change something that is written down, but just annoying to deal with something not defined.
Dusty
I don't really agree with this. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. The ability to do something because of technology doesn't mean it's a good way to do it, or better than current methods. Unless and until we have reliable wireless 100Mb connectivity everywhere - and we're a very, very long way from that (hell, just watch what happens when you have more than one wireless network on a set) - these kind of things are more trouble than they're worth, in part because expectations are usually based on current reality. And current reality is that productions routinely shoot hours of material these days, and studios both large and small expect particular products made from that and delivered to various locations in a reasonable time frame that's really only reasonable given the connectivity. Not to mention that just because things can be done in camera doesn't mean it won't be both time and attention consuming to do it. The single most important responsibility in production is to make the day. Anything that distracts from that is not particularly efficient or important in the scheme of things. It's all very nice to talk about the wonders of technology and how "the cloud" is the ultimate answer to everything, but the reality is that today, given the amount of data we're dealing with, it's just not very practical. And it may never be, given the ever increasing size and amount of files we produce. The more you put on the camera crew in terms of things like color decisions, the less of the day is spent doing their actual job, which is shooting and making sure that what is being shot is what the director wants. Post production in general is very intolerant of things that affect the post pipeline, and parallel recording paths - as you would need for "on camera" proxies - can create that. It doesn't always, but it can and does. Time codes that don't match. Glitches in the picture that never get seen prior to editorial because they're not QC'd. No double system sync. No sorting of selects. Etc., etc. In my world - which, granted, is not everyone's - these things are just unacceptable. That doesn't mean that aspects of what you're talking about shouldn't and won't happen, that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that you don't throw out the baby with the bath water, and you don't replace procedures that allow things to be done with more efficiency and fewer errors with something that shifts the responsibility to those who have never had it just because technology permits it. "The lab" simply doesn't belong on the camera because what it does is different than what the camera and its operator do. To me, it's that simple.
Mark L. Pederson
REDuser Sponsor
We agree to disagree.
And for the record, allowing a DP to instantly adjust the color/raw setting of a shot while he/she looks at a 17" monitor that is on a c-stand a few feet away from the camera is a HELL of a lot more efficient than being teathered to a cart with a person making CDLs.
"The more you put on the camera crew in terms of things like color decisions, the less of the day is spent doing their actual job" .... cough cough .... I'd rather give as much of that power (color) back to the DP.
David Mullen ASC
Moderator
Except what DP would make critical decisions on color and gamma on a monitor in room lighting on a busy set? Something temporary and uncritical maybe...
Mark L. Pederson
REDuser Sponsor
Obviously, I'm talking about dailies. And as you know many DIT's are currently making CDL's "on a monitor in room lighting on a busy set" today.
That's what makes us us. :cheers2:
Disagreeing - while still being respectful of the other's opinion - is something I wish more people would do, here and elsewhere.
I would add, though, that there's a lot more to making dailies and satisfying the attendant deliverable requirements than just color settings. Hence my previous post.
Mark L. Pederson
REDuser Sponsor
Sure. But what dailies are now - is not what they used to be - is not what it's going to be in the future.
As you know, we had 35mm rushes - only accasionally pushed or pulled with an occasional C-light adjustment (RGB values 0-50) - then tape dailies one light, and best light - injest into AVID, assistant editor does sync in AVID - then fully graded dailies on tape with audio sync on tape, then digital dailies in sync in MXF, etc. etc. and I'm sure I'm forgetting a few variations. Remember dailies on DVDs
Blair S. Paulsen
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2006
- Messages
- 5,503
- Reaction score
- 34
- Points
- 48
- Location
- San Diego, CA
- Website
- www.alacritymedia.com
What has traditionally been referred to as "dailies" has already morphed into something that deserves a new name. More to the point, as it becomes easier to create "proxy" media in various iterations to suit specific use cases within the broader infrastructure I expect multi-path solutions to manifest for expediency. That said, the need for QC is real and there has to be a fail safe for conform.
Proper data handling matters, whatever the next generation of the DIT role (using the term generically here) might entail. Beyond that, to me at least, the issue becomes one of enabling the DP to extend authorship of the image beyond the point of capture and into the RAW development space - without compromising the overriding need to "make the day". It is my contention that if the DP and the DIT, in this case the DIT is acting like a traditional "lab timer", work together in a smart way, they can create LUTs (development curves if you prefer) and make key adjustments without slowing things down. For this to work, the DIT needs to be essentially an on-set colorist and have the trust of the DP - which is a fairly stiff requirement.
While I don't dispute Mike's recitation of all the expectations of a "proper" dailies pipeline, I think over the next couple of years Mark's scenario will manifest. More automation, more use of the cloud, better metadata integration, etc will make it viable to do more things on the fly - without a significant net impact on camera crew operations.
Cheers - #19
Proper data handling matters, whatever the next generation of the DIT role (using the term generically here) might entail. Beyond that, to me at least, the issue becomes one of enabling the DP to extend authorship of the image beyond the point of capture and into the RAW development space - without compromising the overriding need to "make the day". It is my contention that if the DP and the DIT, in this case the DIT is acting like a traditional "lab timer", work together in a smart way, they can create LUTs (development curves if you prefer) and make key adjustments without slowing things down. For this to work, the DIT needs to be essentially an on-set colorist and have the trust of the DP - which is a fairly stiff requirement.
While I don't dispute Mike's recitation of all the expectations of a "proper" dailies pipeline, I think over the next couple of years Mark's scenario will manifest. More automation, more use of the cloud, better metadata integration, etc will make it viable to do more things on the fly - without a significant net impact on camera crew operations.
Cheers - #19
Sure. But what dailies are now - is not what they used to be - is not what it's going to be in the future.
As you know, we had 35mm rushes - only accasionally pushed or pulled with an occasional C-light adjustment (RGB values 0-50) - then tape dailies one light, and best light - injest into AVID, assistant editor does sync in AVID - then fully graded dailies on tape with audio sync on tape, then digital dailies in sync in MXF, etc. etc. and I'm sure I'm forgetting a few variations. Remember dailies on DVDs
No argument there. But I would point out that in your timeline of dailies evolution, each successive version carries more requirements prior to editorial than the previous one. The notion that editorial will resume some of their prior responsibilities - like synching and preparing screening elements, for instance - goes counter to the trend of having all of that done before it ever hits the cutting room. The only real consistent trend I've seen in dailies over the last, oh, 30 years or so, has been to want more and pay less, both in terms of the steps that are performed and the volume of material processed. And that trend has really accelerated in the digital era, even as the expectations in terms of quality, turnaround, and accuracy have increased.
Mark L. Pederson
REDuser Sponsor
Agreed. And that's is why you will see more task-based hardware appliances doing things that a guy with a computer is doing now.
I've long gone by the mantra of anything that can be automated, or done by a computer, should be. That's how we designed and developed the original mobile dailies systems at Next Element almost 5 years ago. So yes, I agree with that in principle. I just don't happen to think that those appliances will necessarily be built into the camera. Or even on the set. Or should be. But there will undoubtedly be variations on the theme, as there always are.......
Björn Benckert
Well-known member
My wish I want a box running on dual Vlocks or such that has a touch screen interface / screen and that automatic copy any inserted SSD to dual TB discs.
It should also have automatic proxy renders HD proress + web files to the same set of disks.
Automatic 4G internet upload to a "project web page" with login.
SDI input from camera (preferably wireless) with direct live feed trough skype conection.
MAke it in a rock solid pelli case with internal spring suspension so it can also take a fall when running from 20 meters +
That would solve pretty much the whole DIT drama.
It should also have automatic proxy renders HD proress + web files to the same set of disks.
Automatic 4G internet upload to a "project web page" with login.
SDI input from camera (preferably wireless) with direct live feed trough skype conection.
MAke it in a rock solid pelli case with internal spring suspension so it can also take a fall when running from 20 meters +
That would solve pretty much the whole DIT drama.
Mark L. Pederson
REDuser Sponsor
Steve Sherrick
Well-known member
This already exists for the most part. Other than perhaps the Skype part of it.My wish I want a box running on dual Vlocks or such that has a touch screen interface / screen and that automatic copy any inserted SSD to dual TB discs.
It should also have automatic proxy renders HD proress + web files to the same set of disks.
Automatic 4G internet upload to a "project web page" with login.
SDI input from camera (preferably wireless) with direct live feed trough skype conection.
MAke it in a rock solid pelli case with internal spring suspension so it can also take a fall when running from 20 meters +
That would solve pretty much the whole DIT drama.