American DITs... ugghhh

[Ivan Kovax]

I guess the danger of charging less is that people will try to get away with it every time. Its a bit like charging a lower rate as a focus puller for a sit down interview versus handheld action scenes.

For those kind of gigs theres always the option of hiring someone cheaper or less experienced, but again that's productions call.

Or essentially, just do what I did on my last job as DOP... split the task of Wrangling between me and my AC.

This is the risk you guys run.. .if you are inflexible, then the production will just what I just said... and IMHO, this is a major issue facing DITs. RIght now we are all caught still trying to justify our rates, often being douchebags (heh heh), and being generally defensive and insecure when the issue comes up. This really needs to change...

 

[Ivan Kovax]

I never work as a "Digital Downloader" or "Media Manager" or "Digital Utility" or whatever... 90% of my work is in national commercials where I provide complete pre-thru-post services including color-correction and dailies. My rates vary from job to job as do my gear rentals depending on a job's needs. The issue really isn't how one gets paid well for the job on hand, it's about how one gets paid even better for the next job.

By way of advice, I honestly think you should focus more on on-set colour correction (and definitely editing) more than anything else. The rest of the transcoding dallies is going to plummet the more people use systems which make the concept of online and offline irrelevant.

I have edited TV commercials I have shot on my macbookpro ... all online. PPro. I lit it for how I wanted it to look, and in post nothing more than a very minor tweak in curves and colour balance was needed.

Other systems (mainly Avid for you I assume) will be trending towards this, so in response your services will need to adapt as well. At that point, I could probably justify having a guy like you on set to wrangle, and also so colour adjustments to the metadata (no destructively) but there is no way i could justify to production to do much more than that (ie. rendering, scopes, fandabulous monitors, and massive macpros with rockets attached).

 

[Andrew clemson]

Or essentially, just do what I did on my last job as DOP... split the task of Wrangling between me and my AC.

This is the risk you guys run.. .if you are inflexible, then the production will just what I just said... and IMHO, this is a major issue facing DITs. RIght now we are all caught still trying to justify our rates, often being douchebags (heh heh), and being generally defensive and insecure when the issue comes up. This really needs to change...

Agreed, its something that happens more regularly as time goes on. What Im hoping it will do is just weed out the cowboys and mean that you get hired for doing a good job. Like other roles.

Its the falicy that being a dit just requires good kit. I think the bulk of the job entails knowing the pipeline so you can correctly and confidently call out when a mistake is a threat to the production and when it is correctable.

 

[Adrian Jebef]

By way of advice, I honestly think you should focus more on on-set colour correction (and definitely editing) more than anything else. The rest of the transcoding dallies is going to plummet the more people use systems which make the concept of online and offline irrelevant.

I have edited TV commercials I have shot on my macbookpro ... all online. PPro. I lit it for how I wanted it to look, and in post nothing more than a very minor tweak in curves and colour balance was needed.

Other systems (mainly Avid for you I assume) will be trending towards this, so in response your services will need to adapt as well. At that point, I could probably justify having a guy like you on set to wrangle, and also so colour adjustments to the metadata (no destructively) but there is no way i could justify to production to do much more than that (ie. rendering, scopes, fandabulous monitors, and massive macpros with rockets attached).

Honestly, I usually get hired for my colorist skills these days. Though the tools exist to edit directly with native/master media, in the top US markets there will continue to be a division of labor. A highly-paid professional Editor will not take the time/money to build or have multiple editing systems at his disposal for RED or ARRIRAW or F65 jobs. (S)he will simply require offline editorial files per their preferred specs. Here in LA the Editor simply wants to edit. They have no interest in dealing with timecode, sync sound, color-correction, or file format compatibility issues. These requirements will still have to be met by a Post House or savvy DIT.

 

[Mark Toia]

Ill be in Tokyo in 3 weeks time... Lets try catch up

 

[Ivan Kovax]

Honestly, I usually get hired for my colorist skills these days. Though the tools exist to edit directly with native/master media, in the top US markets there will continue to be a division of labor. A highly-paid professional Editor will not take the time/money to build or have multiple editing systems at his disposal for RED or ARRIRAW or F65 jobs. (S)he will simply require offline editorial files per their preferred specs. Here in LA the Editor simply wants to edit. They have no interest in dealing with timecode, sync sound, color-correction, or file format compatibility issues. These requirements will still have to be met by a Post House or savvy DIT.

You make a good argument. Especially in regards to sync sound. But still, you can record prores (for offline) as well as arriraw or the alexa, and easily do a prores out to a recorder on the f65. The f55 will record a proxy for the offline too. Canon just the same. Its really not hard dealing with HD footage of any format these days, and all online, on simple editing stations.

Also with sound, it is not too hard to go straight to camera then have the mixer sync it up. Or even mix from the camera audio if time is an issue.

I understand everything you are saying. However I see a lot of this as cost and time-inefficient, and am certain this is all bound to change soon.

 

[Adrian Jebef]

You make a good argument. Especially in regards to sync sound. But still, you can record prores (for offline) as well as arriraw or the alexa, and easily do a prores out to a recorder on the f65. The f55 will record a proxy for the offline too. Canon just the same. Its really not hard dealing with HD footage of any format these days, and all online, on simple editing stations.

Also with sound, it is not too hard to go straight to camera then have the mixer sync it up. Or even mix from the camera audio if time is an issue.

I understand everything you are saying. However I see a lot of this as cost and time-inefficient, and am certain this is all bound to change soon.

If a Producer gives you clearance to generate proxies in this way then go at it. Unfortunately, by going your route you are introducing a lot of potential problems into your workflow. I should know as I used to do this about four years ago before having a fully functional Resolve system on set was a possibility. Another potential issue by using a dual-recording workflow as you suggest is potentially not QCing your master media files. I've consistently found that generating dailies directly from ARRIRAW or R3D or other Master Media files is the best way to ensure zero problems. It beats a checksum any day. As far as sound goes, most professional Editors in my market request full production audio sync with their offline dailies. A 2-channel scratch track won't work. If the scene had 8 actors covered by 8 lavs and 2 booms they'll want all 10 discreet audio tracks sync'd to their dailies.

Things do change but in my market professionals continue to expect their requests to be perfectly packaged and tied up in neat little pink bows.

It is Hollywood after all...

 

[Ivan Kovax]

If a Producer gives you clearance to generate proxies in this way then go at it. Unfortunately, by going your route you are introducing a lot of potential problems into your workflow. I should know as I used to do this about four years ago before having a fully functional Resolve system on set was a possibility. Another potential issue by using a dual-recording workflow as you suggest is potentially not QCing your master media files. I've consistently found that generating dailies directly from ARRIRAW or R3D or other Master Media files is the best way to ensure zero problems. It beats a checksum any day. As far as sound goes, most professional Editors in my market request full production audio sync with their offline dailies. A 2-channel scratch track won't work. If the scene had 8 actors covered by 8 lavs and 2 booms they'll want all 10 discreet audio tracks sync'd to their dailies.

Things do change but in my market professionals continue to expect their requests to be perfectly packaged and tied up in neat little pink bows.

It is Hollywood after all...

It seems so wasteful. Of course there could be the occasional drop frame, lag etc (though that rarely happens). I gotta say that in 5-6 years of doing this i have rarely any minor serious issues with a dual recording let alone serious issues.

Wow. LA is so demanding. I guess that means lots of DIT work, hey?

That being said and done, you are an excellent salesman at your role. credit to you...

 

[Adrian Jebef]

It seems so wasteful. Of course there could be the occasional drop frame, lag etc (though that rarely happens). I gotta say that in 5-6 years of doing this i have rarely any minor serious issues with a dual recording let alone serious issues.

Wow. LA is so demanding. I guess that means lots of DIT work, hey?

That being said and done, you are an excellent salesman at your role. credit to you...

It's all about expectation. In my market the expectation is to over-deliver without the faintest thoughts of a problem. I agree that there are many ways in which to do a job. I work for one particular director that prefers a crew of 10 over a crew of 100. I've arrived on one of his sets only to find a 50ft Techno, Bebee Light, 2 EPICS, an Operator, and a 1st AC. I've pulled focus, operated the 2nd camera, and generated color-corrected dailies all at once. Not that this is really feasible but it can be done. That being said I'm really not looking forward to doing it again.

There is a lot of work here in LA. Perhaps you should move. I could put in the good word.

And always remember: "If you think you're worth it but you're not charging what you're worth then you're shooting yourself in the foot and bleeding all over the dance floor."

 

[Ivan Kovax]

It's all about expectation. In my market the expectation is to over-deliver without the faintest thoughts of a problem. I agree that there are many ways in which to do a job. I work for one particular director that prefers a crew of 10 over a crew of 100. I've arrived on one of his sets only to find a 50ft Techno, Bebee Light, 2 EPICS, an Operator, and a 1st AC. I've pulled focus, operated the 2nd camera, and generated color-corrected dailies all at once. Not that this is really feasible but it can be done. That being said I'm really not looking forward to doing it again.

There is a lot of work here in LA. Perhaps you should move. I could put in the good word.

And always remember: "If you think you're worth it but you're not charging what you're worth then you're shooting yourself in the foot and bleeding all over the dance floor."

Did I just somehow get a job by being a douche?
bahaha

 

[Adrian Jebef]

Did I just somehow get a job by being a douche?
bahaha

"Fake it 'til you make it!"

 

[dino g]

Any one that calls themselves a DIT and charges the union rates and kit rentals over $500.00 better know each camera better than the AC's, better have a raid5 with at least 20TB of storage at speeds over 10 Gig per minute ( mine go 60 gig per minute), must have working knowledge and expertise of at least one NLE program and at least one grading suite and better know how to trouble shoot and fit it all and better have backups of all of the above. otherwise they are nothing more than data wranglers, and should actually be penalized for going slow not rewarded with overtime.

6 years ago the stories i heard about what guys would do on set was shocking, now it seems like the market has matured a bit and now people are going to set with a reasonable amount of gear and knowledge and expertise. categorizing dit's by their country of origin is not understanding the reality of what a top DIT does or where they work. personally i have worked on every continent doing this job, many of them I was the first person in that country with the red or an epic. so to say "American" and paint it all with a huge brush is just pure ignorance. some of the American DIT's that have been around since the beginning paved the way for these camera to even exist and we took many many hits from all of the crew for even being on set.

Let's all not forget that before the red one there was the P2 cameras and Tape and no one had a good 35mm sensor based camera...this was right when the biggest economic downturn of 100 years took place. do you think jobs would have gone to film, no, they would have gone away or gone to eng units. for the record American DIT's created the position and anyone in the world that has the position and makes money at it should thank us for being supportive of one an other at the beginning and sharing knowledge and expertise so that there can be a position. no one was getting $500 for a kit rental in 2007, no one! because the tools did not exist and if they were trying to get it then they were just scammers that probably are not around anymore.

so i would change the title of this thread to "under qualified, under equipped, knowledge-less, arrogant so-called DIT's are a bad for the industry" or something more generic like that. because yes we have all heard stories about them and luckily we never get to spend time with them because we are usually the ones that are called to come in and clean up or redo the problems.

on the other hand, no one ever has a great and perfect day, everyday. sidney crosby did not score one goal or even have an assist tonight and his team averages 4.xx goals a game in the 2013 playoffs and they got zero tonight...so maybe your boy was having a bad day, we all do now and again and if you can minimize them, then you will probably work a lot.

I like the thread, the title is provocative, but the reality is very very different.

good luck and bottom line as i have said since 2007, know your shit, and you will make us all look good, because no one DIT can do all the jobs...trust me i tried for a couple years.

dino

 

[Ivan Kovax]

Any one that calls themselves a DIT and charges the union rates and kit rentals over $500.00 better know each camera better than the AC's, better have a raid5 with at least 20TB of storage at speeds over 10 Gig per minute ( mine go 60 gig per minute), must have working knowledge and expertise of at least one NLE program and at least one grading suite and better know how to trouble shoot and fit it all and better have backups of all of the above. otherwise they are nothing more than data wranglers, and should actually be penalized for going slow not rewarded with overtime.

6 years ago the stories i heard about what guys would do on set was shocking, now it seems like the market has matured a bit and now people are going to set with a reasonable amount of gear and knowledge and expertise. categorizing dit's by their country of origin is not understanding the reality of what a top DIT does or where they work. personally i have worked on every continent doing this job, many of them I was the first person in that country with the red or an epic. so to say "American" and paint it all with a huge brush is just pure ignorance. some of the American DIT's that have been around since the beginning paved the way for these camera to even exist and we took many many hits from all of the crew for even being on set.

Let's all not forget that before the red one there was the P2 cameras and Tape and no one had a good 35mm sensor based camera...this was right when the biggest economic downturn of 100 years took place. do you think jobs would have gone to film, no, they would have gone away or gone to eng units. for the record American DIT's created the position and anyone in the world that has the position and makes money at it should thank us for being supportive of one an other at the beginning and sharing knowledge and expertise so that there can be a position. no one was getting $500 for a kit rental in 2007, no one! because the tools did not exist and if they were trying to get it then they were just scammers that probably are not around anymore.

so i would change the title of this thread to "under qualified, under equipped, knowledge-less, arrogant so-called DIT's are a bad for the industry" or something more generic like that. because yes we have all heard stories about them and luckily we never get to spend time with them because we are usually the ones that are called to come in and clean up or redo the problems.

on the other hand, no one ever has a great and perfect day, everyday. sidney crosby did not score one goal or even have an assist tonight and his team averages 4.xx goals a game in the 2013 playoffs and they got zero tonight...so maybe your boy was having a bad day, we all do now and again and if you can minimize them, then you will probably work a lot.

I like the thread, the title is provocative, but the reality is very very different.

good luck and bottom line as i have said since 2007, know your shit, and you will make us all look good, because no one DIT can do all the jobs...trust me i tried for a couple years.

dino

Hey Dino. Thanks for your reply. The thread title was meant to get your attention, and to that effect it did. If the title offends you, then I am sorry about that, but there is no way to change it that I know of.

However the body was crystal clear about the situation on set, so I don't think there was any ignorance in effect there, nor any over-generalisation - and to that extent I don't appreciate at all being called "purely ignorant", which I clearly wasn't and am not. Additionally, please don't get so defensive re: the "american DITs that paved the way"... it was also crystal clear that this post was not aimed at them in context.

Thankyou for the rest of your post. I by and large agree with you. It was clear, concise and very reasonable.

 

[dino g]

ignorance was not directed to you either, just to the idea of it being an american thing...love all around brother...and for the record, i do easily get offended and bark right back, it is nothing personal, i just enjoy pushing back...it must either be a hockey thing, or that fact that i look like a middle eastern terrorist, have a greek name ( so the whole EU and beyond hates me) and an american passport which also offends most every other person...so ya, the guard is up...but again, you are not ignorant, nor arrogant i appreciate the post and enjoy reading the responses, it is good to have you guys on all of our team, and a brotherhood that takes our jobs serious because love it or hate it, if we fuck up, there is no second take...it is just a reshoot and a flushing down the toilet of everyone's hard work....which really sucks for everyone...respect.


dino

 

[Ketch Rossi]

Well aside form many of the good replies, I can add that having traveled the world around shooting with the RED EPIC, even so I also DIT, I have almost always used a dedicated DIT, like on the Dubai Job.

What I can say is this, the tile is certainly WRONG, I am Italian, not American, but after half my life in the USA, I also consider my self half American by nature, and the title offended me as well, in a community such as this we must be more careful what we say, and how we say it, in respect to others, as we wish others would do in respect to us, and you being form a country so Respect/Honor oriented you should have tough about that, so the proper title should have been, "Some DIT's...


I have found very professional and most willing to help, and very polite and in their place people all over the place, form USA to Brazil, Panama, Mexico, Italy, Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Egypt, France, Spain, Germany, Warsaw, and the list goes on, yet in this very same places I also found people which on the opposite were arrogant (more then me but with way less experience and knowledge) disrespectful and simply put completely out of place, and almost in need to be thrown out of the set, which I never did.


What I am trying to say is that you'll find the good and the bad, in all places, exception of none!!


In our industry same as in few others I can think of and had experience in, such as Restaurant business, R&D business, one must have a great deal of self control and patience, to also be able to bay seat around when needed, and always make the other get on with his/hers job without further conflict, so to get the over all job finished, and not cause any more steer in the team or to the end client, especially when their are present.


Remember that I am not talking from the point of view of just an other worker on set, but form the perspective of been always one of the top dogs on set, either the Producer, the Director, the DP, or the Cinematographer, or at times all of them together, yet I always find a very polite and diplomatic way to go about it, and if I can do that in a position of power, then so should every one else working with me on set.

At the end of the day I don't do this for money, even so I do get paid probably way more then I should, but I do this because I LOVE it, and my passion for it will never allow anything nor anyone, to come in the middle of my results.


PS: Of course this reply is not directed at you Ivan, (other then for the title) but rather is intended to reflect my opinion and how I believe any one should behave him/herself on set amongst other professionals...

 

[Ivan Kovax]

Cool cool

Dino, mate... despite the fact that I say "mate" I can technically be president as much as you can so I find that part amusing

I am in the ironic position of being able to tease with an Aussie accent and say, "Fuckin Americans..." then whip out my US passport when they get all defensive

 

[Ivan Kovax]

What I can say is this, the tile is certainly WRONG, I am Italian, not American, but after half my life in the USA, I also consider my self half American by nature, and the title offended me as well, in a community such as this we must be more careful what we say, and how we say it, in respect to others, as we wish others would do in respect to us, and you being form a country so Respect/Honor oriented you should have tough about that, so the proper title should have been, "Some DIT's...

Ketch mate, chill out. I didn't mention in any way in the body that I think all american DITs are douches. ANd to that extent, how do you not know that i was referring to American DIT douches alone?

Douchebaggery is a universal attribute for sure, and not confined to the USA, but the body was crystal clear what the situation was and this thread was about. I don't think I nor anybody else ever claimed or assumed such a thing.

So please don't turn this thread into something that it is not.

 

[dino g]

i do love how you are monitoring your thread and responding to everyones post...i wish everyone took responsibility for what they wrote in that way instead of just throwing out some shit and then disappearing into the darkness. rock on IVAN! and thanks ketch for having my back, i always loved your cooking...and you too!

ok back to talking about douchebaggery ( i love that word...first time reading it, but it makes perfect sense)

 

[Ivan Kovax]

Thanks Dino. Much appreciated. I take my words, and work seriously, so I like to clear up any miscommunications before they get out of hand. I don't generally start major threads on RedUser unless I see them of value so I am glad that everybody has by and large looked past the provocative (I like to think of it as rather amusing) title, and discuss the issues at hand. I think most people who have posted have made some really great points.

 

[Zakaree Sandberg]

there are lots of these guy..
think they are the shit.. watch youtube all day.. occasionally back up data/transcode..

charging 1k a day + 700-1000 kit rental isnt unheard of.. i mean.. its a great rate..
i havent ever got that.. average is 700-900 for me and kit is anywhere from 400-800.. just depends what im doing and what needs to be done..

but i act as if im an additional AC.. if im not doing on set grading or transcoding.. im right there to run batteries, cover the 2nd on lenses or slating.. pulling cases off the truck.. i actually act as if im part of camera department.. rather than and onsite POST guy ..