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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Ambush test...

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kodak tests do matter for sales

kodak tests do matter for sales

offhollywood said:
Anybody that MATTERS, in this industry, doesn't give a SHIT about tests like these.
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that sounds great but anybody that matters only make up about 1% of the business. what about all the others? the guys that just want to rent a camera for a music video shoot. or the guys that can't decide between purchasing a pro level cam with interchangeable lenses and the red one. these guys can't afford to put together a giant shootout between the best cameras. they rely on big, pro tests from people like kodak and panavision. they listen to reviews and if they don't, they listen to their colleagues who listen to those reviews. how do you think most people got to reduser? so far all of the red users and reservation holders got here on word of mouth and faith. what makes you think that the average dp is so much more discerning and scientific about their purchases? there are thousands of potential sales out there for such a high quality/low pricepoint product like red one. these sales will buy based upon word of mouth and a few test chart stills because they can. the red team cannot afford to let sales like these go by without a fight. i'm sure once red features trickle out and red shootout tests come to light, we'll start to hear great word of mouth for red and then you'll see sales kick into high gear. 3000+ reservations is just scratching the surface.
 
The people that matter.........I don't have a clue what that means!

And from whose perspective? Are you talking about Red's perspective who I'm sure enjoy sales with good press?

Maybe you mean the firmly converted reservation holders or maybe its the people that are about to hear, or have heard about Red...and don't buy the camera after hearing about it's poor results in a shoot out.
Or maybe it's the paid up pros who'll listen to the word on the street and then do their own 'try before you buy' stuff.

The point I'm making is everyone matters in some way and saying I don't care about them is well....weird.
Remember for every person that's sure about buying a Red there's another 10 who aren't. There's no harm in furthering market penetration.

It's the rough road Red's gotta tread to get up the top.
You get detractors. They're there for a very good reason.To protect the industry and offset fanboys.
Don't disregard them! Bring 'em on!! The trials/scrutiny/feedback can only make Red better!

Good luck Red team.....


Cheers,


stoppress: Wigby, just read your post.....so ditto !
 
I'll tell you two things I don't care about.

1) What other indies buy.
2) How well RED does financially.

It's not my place to worry. Jim's got every right to be pissed but I don't understand how some people feel like they're getting pissed on too.

Every chart handed out by a corporate entity is immediately suspect. Doesn't matter if it's from Panavision, Kodak, RED or Ma's Sugar Pills. Marketing is Marketing is Advertising is Lies. Everybody knows that.

Kodak or whoever is going to do their thing and try to hype up their product. RED is going to act righteously indignant at the dishonesty and we're going to take it all with a grain of salt. Everybody is playing their part.

And if I cared I also wouldn't sweat indies making a buying decision on red based on this. They can't afford film and the RED is cheaper than 2/3" HD. Honestly RED can look pretty shitty and still be their best option.
 
What do we really know about these tests ? They may be for internal use by Kodak to figure out what they're up against, or, to test film outs from those different cameras, or, to find out if Red really is all it claims to be, just so they can prepare themselves. Are any other players (Sony, Arri) invited ? If not, then then Red will not be the only one complaining. Maybe they don't want to invite those companies yet, because when a company comes to present their product they're biased, they know it's strong and weak points, and will make sure the others don't find out about the weak points. I really think it's too early to scream and shout about this. I don't find it suprising or shocking, quite normal actually, so far, depends if and what they announce afterwards.

Cheers,
Damien
 
wigby said:
that sounds great but anybody that matters only make up about 1% of the business. what about all the others? the guys that just want to rent a camera for a music video shoot. or the guys that can't decide between purchasing a pro level cam with interchangeable lenses and the red one. these guys can't afford to put together a giant shootout between the best cameras. they rely on big, pro tests from people like kodak and panavision. they listen to reviews and if they don't, they listen to their colleagues who listen to those reviews. how do you think most people got to reduser? so far all of the red users and reservation holders got here on word of mouth and faith. what makes you think that the average dp is so much more discerning and scientific about their purchases? there are thousands of potential sales out there for such a high quality/low pricepoint product like red one. these sales will buy based upon word of mouth and a few test chart stills because they can. the red team cannot afford to let sales like these go by without a fight. i'm sure once red features trickle out and red shootout tests come to light, we'll start to hear great word of mouth for red and then you'll see sales kick into high gear. 3000+ reservations is just scratching the surface.
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I defined the folks that MATTER as the ones that LEAD where others FOLLOW. And the LEADERS in the industry all do their own tests. Yes, indies and little guys can't afford these huge shoot-outs - but they pay closer attention to WHO is shooting in RED than a SALES PROMOTION PIECE from the FILM STOCK COMPANY.

I seriously doubt that "the guys that just want to rent a camera for a music video shoot" will shoot on super-16mm because they heard about a KODAK comparison test when they heard that THIS HOLLYWOOD DIRECTOR and THAT HOLLYWOOD DIRECTOR and THIS INDIE MAVERICK and THAT INDIE MAVERICK are shooting RED.
 
Jannard said:
We are scheduling a similar test. But we will invite all companies involved to supervise the test. The only way a test like this is valid.

Jim
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Not sure I entirely agree. The best tests are conducted by objective third parties in consultation with suppliers.

M
 
earthling said:
What do we really know about these tests ? They may be for internal use by Kodak to figure out what they're up against,...
Cheers,
Damien
Click to expand...

That is one reasonable possibility. Another is that they do like the pharmaseutical industry - run a large number of secret tests, and only publish the result if it is favourable.

Kodak is a company that KNOWS one of its most profitable product lines has peaked. They have already told shareholders that they are changing away from being mostly a chemical industry company to an intellignce industry company. They just need to slow the decline from the profitable film peak while they get rid of some plants and people and get new ones with different abilities.
 
Another test

Another test

Anyone see the BSC test in London on Friday, f23 v f900r v D20 v 35mm v super 16mm (Fuji and Kodak)?



Mike Brennan
 
I can just see 9 months from ... a new stock from Kodak ....

specifically designed for "film record out from 4K material originating on the RED ONE digital ciname camera" ...
 
offhollywood said:
I can just see 9 months from ... a new stock from Kodak ....

specifically designed for "film record out from 4K material originating on the RED ONE digital ciname camera" ...
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This is a possibility as we will be seeing filmouts on ARRI laser writers for a long time to come.

David
 
I think everyone is missing a major point here...

...You can't possibly test the RED to the best of its ability without the cooporation and participation of the RED Team.

Why?

Images from RED need to be processed through REDCINE or REDALERT. I'd be so bold to suggest that no one with current access to those programs has enough experience yet to tweak out an image to testing perfection. Only someone from the development team could do that, and even then, six months from now the same footage could be re-tweaked for perhaps a better de-bayer or other processing...

With film negative, you can make very reliable measurements of the density, etc. by direct observation. Not so with the raw compressed bayer information. It needs to be manipulated by either coarse or fine processing to explore its properties.

The absolute Gold Standard for the RED is a yet unobtained moving target in the hands of the programmers.
 
Jannard said:
If someone wants to "win" a test... it is pretty easy. Just don't invite the other players.

We are suggesting a test where all the other players are invited.

Jim
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Absolutely right Jim, " Fight Big Fights only we have the resources to win " , and we have 2000+ RED one cameras to fight with those " countable " F900 / D20 / F23 ? ( Not delivery yet ? )

Let's preapre for our " RED Glory " ...............................

STEW
 
i think that was exactly jim's point--can they hold off testing until the features are fully enabled? i'm assuming that includes affiliated software, like REDCINE.

still, what is there to ambush? if RED sticks to its knitting and continues getting endorsements from the likes of soderbergh, jackson, neveldine, etc., with still more to come undoubtedly, then over time, any corrupt testing process is going to end up looking bad, not RED.

most of these tests are quickly forgotten, anyway, as actual users go about their business of choosing cameras and getting their productions done. that's the only test that matters. and, test-schmest, RED is positioned to put up the production numbers to prove the product.
 
Jim Arthurs said:
I think everyone is missing a major point here...

...You can't possibly test the RED to the best of its ability without the cooporation and participation of the RED Team.

Why?

Images from RED need to be processed through REDCINE or REDALERT. I'd be so bold to suggest that no one with current access to those programs has enough experience yet to tweak out an image to testing perfection. Only someone from the development team could do that, and even then, six months from now the same footage could be re-tweaked for perhaps a better de-bayer or other processing...

With film negative, you can make very reliable measurements of the density, etc. by direct observation. Not so with the raw compressed bayer information. It needs to be manipulated by either coarse or fine processing to explore its properties.

The absolute Gold Standard for the RED is a yet unobtained moving target in the hands of the programmers.
Click to expand...

Well, actually that's not quite correct. There is also at least Scratch one can use to process r3d files, and there are a few people out there capable of using a Scratch system. Other applications, although myabe only beta versions, may also be capable of processing r3d files. As to Redcine, according to the article about CTL in "Onfilm", the people that worked did the post probably got some help from Red, but apparently it wasn't Red people that actually processed the footage...

Anyhow, if I had a competing product, I would certainly hold my own tests, before doing public tests, to know what I was up against. Now if they go public and say things that are untrue about the Red One, it's another story. For the time being, Jim just said he had heard about a test going on and that they hadn't been invited. Let's wait and see...

By announcing this test publicly, Jim is actually putting the pressure on them, because if they don't say anything, people will come to the conclusion the tests were not favorable to them (the organizers, Kodak is it ?). If they do make a public statement, they have to be careful, an outright lie would also damage them as it would be obvious they can't compete. This is all a big cat and mouse game, where we don't really know who's the cat and who's the mouse. I guess we should just say : Well done Jim ! (again).

Cheers,
Damien
 
Hi Damien,

People make tests every day of the week, it's quite normal. There is no winner ever, depends on what you are looking for that day.

Stephen
 
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