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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Ambush test...

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There so many more things that can be compared than image superiority. As was stated earlier in this post, we can look at the cost of film processing vs. a DI workflow, the immediacy of work you can produce with each camera, how easy it is to work through menus, etc etc etc.

What if film is superior to RED? RED should be pretty damn close to what Kodak will be offering. Furthermore, lets looks at what all the beta testers, such as Rodney Charters ASC, and Jon Farhat (the Visual Effects supervisor for Wanted, and quote them on their impressions of the RED One system. Both of them compared the film stocks they shoot with on the sets to RED, and they said RED was impressive, and Farhat went on to say that RED had better DR in the highlights than Kodak's best film stock 5218. What they are trying to get out of this test we do not know....and if they find anything scary, I'm sure they won't announce it.
 
The market place will quickly decide which is "better" not in terms of quality as much in terms of quality for the price. 70mm film is obviously better than 35mm in terms of quality but the price (double) and the size of the camera (bigger) have given it a very small market.

Digital Solutions are getting cheaper and easier than film. Digital still cameras have taken over 35mm still cameras. Digital Editing won. Digital Projection soon to replace film projection and delivery. RED's 2000+ reservations shows more REDs will be sold in 1 year than all the motion picture cameras and high end HD cameras made in history. I'd say the RED TIDE is coming regardless of Kodak's test or 'stunning' stock value from a high of $95 back in 1997 to about $35 now.. Let's see what the RED test does to their stock and film sales... LOL.
 
I don;t really see how they could 'fix' the result. Unless the DP who is shooting the test is working for Kodak or something. If it is a legit DP with no ties to Kodak who shoots test charts, etc. fairly, I don't see the problem. But, if the fix is in, then of course that is totally lame.

BUT, for me, the point isn't how does the RED compare to 35mm, it's how does it compare to the D20, the Geness, the Viper, the F23, the Varicam, etc. As I said in another thread, the debate shouldn't be film vs. RED (yet....), but RED vs. the other digital cameras out there. If RED can beat them in image, put that with their price, and it is the other digital camera makers that should be shaking at IMMEDIATELY....not Kodak.
 
We are all for a fair test of whatever cameras choose to participate. But, in my opinion, the companies should be present. All we ask is that we have a chance to finish all features and get them enabled in the camera before that happens.

Jim
 
Jannard said:
We are all for a fair test of whatever cameras choose to participate. But, in my opinion, the companies should be present. All we ask is that we have a chance to finish all features and get them enabled in the camera before that happens.

Jim
Click to expand...

Makes total sense.
 
It would be useful to know how the entire process of the images is played out, from shooting to processing to projection, and whether all are subjected to the same amount of care to obtain the most favorable result. Of course because Jim & co don't know creates disparity...how can anyone advise them of the optimal settings all the way through the process if they can't be in the room?

Sure these clowns can do what they can to cast Red in a lesser light, but once people come to understand the power is literally in their hands at a fraction of the cost -with resolution and ability to manipulate the image, it should be a fait accompli.

Let's face it studios don't necessarily care about what camera is being used. It's a tiny line item when lined up against their P&A budgets. I'd be worried if I was renting an F23, Genesis, or a Viper, or even an F900...they're the ones with the most to lose. Red isn't going to kill 35mm, but it will severely weaken the fiscal strength of the parent companies.
 
Jannard said:
We are all for a fair test of whatever cameras choose to participate. But, in my opinion, the companies should be present. All we ask is that we have a chance to finish all features and get them enabled in the camera before that happens.

Jim
Click to expand...


Jim,

When the camera is fully enabled why not send out an open letter to all of the manufactuerers and invite them down to RED to participate in a test. The parameters of the test could be laid out in the letter and the test results could be posted on a website, etc. Someone could be appointed to be the "test ombudsman" to ensure fairness and representation.

Tests are such subjective things and besides image quality, people would want to test and compare workflows, etc. It might be hard to even get everyone in one room to do this test because I think it would be hard to get everyone to agree on what would be tested.

But it would never hurt to invite them all to the party and see who is willing to wear their Sunday best and put the product on the Tripod and hit record.

David
 
Jannard said:
We have a tip there there is an ambush test going on this weekend. We have been told that someone from Kodak is doing a side by side test where the results "have been pre-determined". The cameras involved are RED, D20, F23 and a 35mm film camera. Should be interesting. By the way, RED was not invited to the test.

We are scheduling a similar test. But we will invite all companies involved to supervise the test. The only way a test like this is valid.

Jim
Click to expand...


...proof that you're seriously shaking the temple...

thanks for the info.
 
I always do my job well and believe in leaving the end result to the God ( as said by Lord krishna in Bhagavadgeetha).
The comparative test always confuses.
During my school days we used to have unit exams for every 2 months.
In my 9th grade I have shown 100% improvement over the last unit, but in the end they failed me.
In my 10th grade my score performance decreased for every unit, but they said I was the scool second.
9thGrade Marks-(%performance)
Unit-I 1
Unit-II 2(100%)
Unit-III 4(100%)
Unit-IV 8(100%)
Unit-V 16(100%)
Unit-VI 32(100%)


10th Grade Marks (%performance)
Unit-I 86
Unit-II 89(<4%)
Unit-III 91(<3%)
Unit-IV 93(<3%)
Unit-V 93(<2%)
Unit-VI 94(<2%)


Isn't it confusing..?
 
Heh. I hope Jannard doesn't become a paranoid Jim-Jones style 4K Messiah... or we might all find ourselves out on his compound in OC one day, being asked to drink some mysterious Red punch... our final hours. :)
 
Jannard said:
We are all for a fair test of whatever cameras choose to participate. But, in my opinion, the companies should be present. All we ask is that we have a chance to finish all features and get them enabled in the camera before that happens.

Jim
Click to expand...
the first test I have seen was in germany in the ARRI cinema. Kodak invited for a demonstration between HD and film - this was 2001 - and it was so funny, because the Kodak people didn´t know which was HD and which was film.
Forget all these testings. these tests are stupid - and they will steel your time
 
battistella said:
Jim,

When the camera is fully enabled why not send out an open letter to all of the manufactuerers and invite them down to RED to participate in a test. The parameters of the test could be laid out in the letter and the test results could be posted on a website, etc. Someone could be appointed to be the "test ombudsman" to ensure fairness and representation.

Tests are such subjective things and besides image quality, people would want to test and compare workflows, etc. It might be hard to even get everyone in one room to do this test because I think it would be hard to get everyone to agree on what would be tested.

But it would never hurt to invite them all to the party and see who is willing to wear their Sunday best and put the product on the Tripod and hit record.

David
Click to expand...

David, I don't think this would work. After all, RED is still the underdog. Underdogs don't summon. If the other heavyweights were to show up, they would be admitting that RED is at the very least, their equal. Hence, the closed test they have setup in order to discredit RED'S equal-worthiness. It will probably have some effect for awhile of keeping those who do not research, but instead rely on others to research for them, from adopting the RED platform. After they have invested in other technology then they have to remain in that technology for a time to justify its purchase.

That is why we on this forum may be able to sneak into their realm unnoticed. Jim don't like it because he is losing business; and probably just as important, credibility. Personally, I don't like it either because I claim ounership in the culture of RED.
 
Hi Guys,
Meet the Kodak marketing team.
Don't be alarmed that they have teeth, why would they
not do somthing like this, film is a business just like digital.
You guys with the blessing of Jim have spent years poo pooing film,
before Red was even a reality.
Don't expect Kodak to roll over just because JJ is now in the acquisition
business. The Eastmen family have been there a lot longer and have
lot deeper pockets.
Kodak have done Cinealta comparison tests in the past and Jim should be chuffed that Kodak consider Red worthwhile and a competitive product.
Being paranoid about this is the wrong approach, the tests will prove that
Red is a different product to Film and that both have a place in the industry.
Big deal. We all knew that anyway. We may not want to admit it but we
all knew it.
Stop the fuss and keep shooting. Mezmo
 
A Waste Of Time

A Waste Of Time

Jim -

Anybody that MATTERS, in this industry, doesn't give a SHIT about tests like these.

Because, they will always insist on their OWN, independent tests.

ANY director, DP, producer, studios executive or production company considering a new format or camera, will always insist on their own tests.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what Kodak's agenda is.

Kodak can shoot all the comparison tests they want. So can RED, Panavsion, Thompson, Panasonic, Sony and Silicon Imaging.

It's all a waste of time.

Anybody that MATTERS, in this industry, doesn't give a SHIT about tests like these.
 
offhollywood said:
Jim -

Anybody that MATTERS, in this industry, doesn't give a SHIT about tests like these.
Click to expand...

I don´t rally matter to the industry, yet I can attest to that!
 
The best normally plan for the worst......

I also think c.net as a collective would like Red to fail or at least receive a bit of a beating.
They like the world as they know it to remain.
That's the weakness of followers!

So when a few brave boys like Scott B step up it's refreshing and I hope more will.
ASC can't throw you a life line either. The ride's just beginning!

You know something else Jim... you really should have someone covering your back on all this!

Good luck Jim,
 
number6 said:
David, I don't think this would work. After all, RED is still the underdog. Underdogs don't summon. If the other heavyweights were to show up, they would be admitting that RED is at the very least, their equal. Hence, the closed test they have setup in order to discredit RED'S equal-worthiness. It will probably have some effect for awhile of keeping those who do not research, but instead rely on others to research for them, from adopting the RED platform. After they have invested in other technology then they have to remain in that technology for a time to justify its purchase.

That is why we on this forum may be able to sneak into their realm unnoticed. Jim don't like it because he is losing business; and probably just as important, credibility. Personally, I don't like it either because I claim ounership in the culture of RED.
Click to expand...


Number 6,

I can see this perspective. I think RED is a confident group. The release of "the Argentine" is the test I want to see.

David
 
offhollywood said:
Jim -

Anybody that MATTERS, in this industry, doesn't give a SHIT about tests like these.

Because, they will always insist on their OWN, independent tests.

ANY director, DP, producer, studios executive or production company considering a new format or camera, will always insist on their own tests.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out what Kodak's agenda is.

Kodak can shoot all the comparison tests they want. So can RED, Panavsion, Thompson, Panasonic, Sony and Silicon Imaging.

It's all a waste of time.

Anybody that MATTERS, in this industry, doesn't give a SHIT about tests like these.
Click to expand...

Mark,

You are right. Each production team wants their own security and they gain that by using the stuff and performing their own tests.

Your post hits on everything we need to remember. RED will make it's own stamp.

David
 
battistella said:
Number 6,

I can see this perspective. I think RED is a confident group. The release of "the Argentine" is the test I want to see.

David
Click to expand...

Yeah, I agree. There's your test. Shot on a prototype in excessive heat. Makeshift cooling apparatus. That's legendary stuff if it shows well.
 
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