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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Ambush test...

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"Soon, I'm not going to be answering questions about film because I won't know. It will be too small for me to get involved."

Antonio Perez
CEO
Kodak
2006
 
well, with the truth behind them, I'm guessing the Red marketing team could beat up the Kodak marketing team.

Kodak is making the same mistakes that they made when the world went to digital still cameras. Denying the technology's potential, and trying to berate it until they are loosing hundreds of millions of dollars, and are forced to join the digital club or cease to exist. They really don't understand the concept of disruptive technology.

pathetic
 
Here's what I think happened: Jim up and delivered real working cameras, not BS vaporware. Sensing mild alarm, Kodak sales reps get on the horn to their customers and try to lock in orders for next year, some at sizable discounts. Under pressure to sign sales contracts for film they may not need, suddenly people are calling their Kodak sales rep (who's on the 9th hole at Pebble Beach) and saying they want to delay giving him (or her) their projections for next year because they want to take a wait-and-see approach because "Everything seems like it's in flux". Then, faced with the possibility of shrinking sales commissions that could jeopardize the Hamptons weekend house (yes, some of them make that much in commissions), somebody gets the bright idea to do a showdown test so they can go back to their lab customers with some "real" data before 4th quarter. Meanwhile, the sales manager is pressuring his reps to get their projections in for next year (October's nearly here already) so they can report to the stockholders that next year will be Kodak's best year ever. Somebody's RED camera gets put in that Kangaroo court and c'mon, we all know what the "results" are going to be. But the bottomline is this, Jim: You've ALREADY KICKED THEIR ASS. You did it over a year and 9 months ago. You stuck the little firecracker in the Dam back then and now they're all beginning to feel the concrete starting to shake. I predict that by the time you deliver your 3000th camera, you will be sitting on a pile of buyout offers. Keep your eye on the prize and don't let these Bozos distract you.
 
Jeff Coatney said:
Here's what I think happened: Jim up and delivered real working cameras, not BS vaporware. Sensing mild alarm, Kodak sales reps get on the horn to their customers and try to lock in orders for next year, some at sizable discounts. Under pressure to sign sales contracts for film they may not need, suddenly people are calling their Kodak sales rep (who's on the 9th hole at Pebble Beach) and saying they want to delay giving him (or her) their projections for next year because they want to take a wait-and-see approach because "Everything seems like it's in flux". Then, faced with the possibility of shrinking sales commissions that could jeopardize the Hamptons weekend house (yes, some of them make that much in commissions), somebody gets the bright idea to do a showdown test so they can go back to their lab customers with some "real" data before 4th quarter. Meanwhile, the sales manager is pressuring his reps to get their projections in for next year (October's nearly here already) so they can report to the stockholders that next year will be Kodak's best year ever. Somebody's RED camera gets put in that Kangaroo court and c'mon, we all know what the "results" are going to be. But the bottomline is this, Jim: You've ALREADY KICKED THEIR ASS. You did it over a year and 9 months ago. You stuck the little firecracker in the Dam back then and now they're all beginning to feel the concrete starting to shake. I predict that by the time you deliver your 3000th camera, you will be sitting on a pile of buyout offers. Keep your eye on the prize and don't let these Bozos distract you.
Click to expand...

OK... we won't.

Jim
 
Hey Jeff,
what a piece of drama!
Great post.
 
I believe Red is continuing to evolve and improve their camera- I am hopeful that they will not rush into doing their own camera shootout test before they are fully ready to do it right.
 
jbeale said:
I believe Red is continuing to evolve and improve their camera- I am hopeful that they will not rush into doing their own camera shootout test before they are fully ready to do it right.
Click to expand...

lets face it, film has topped out as a medium, there physically isn't a lot they can do to improve it. Digital cinema is just getting started and its already better than film in many ways. Things are only going to improve.

Kodak should have been the first with a digital cinema camera, but they are lazy.

Just like all the typewriter companies that thought IBM was crazy for making computers, then scrambled to keep up.
Red is going to take Kodaks lunch...and they are crapping their pants over it.
 
Calm down everybody... test - shmest... who cares? Film is great, Red is great! Long live film and long live Red. In the end the market will decide.

There will be film and there will be video. There will be also Red, D20, F23 and others. We will continue to watch great films shot on DV and crappy ones shot with 35mm. And the other way around.

Don't become defensive. No need. Just like with other technologies, Red is not for everyone and not for every project. If some people want to shoot wedding videos on Red, fine, go ahead. If there are people who are mortgaging their house to buy Red, go ahead. Personally I think it's silly. We are back to the fact that the ownership of a pencil doesn't make anybody Leonardo daVinci. And arguments about whether a pencil is better than a pen or a crayon don't make too much sense either.

Is a test like this an ambush? Perhaps, but then maybe not. Will it change the success or failure of Red? Hardly. There are always various tests conducted by people with different objectives. Do your own or wait for someone else to do another - no doubt, there will be a number of tests conducted over the next few months.

The fact that George Lucas and Robert Rodrigues shot features with F900 didn't kill film either. Neither will Red. It's a total nonsense when some people keep repeating that the 'imminent demise of film' is here.

Red is openning doors to more indie filmmakers than any other high end camera before but make no mistake, ownership of Red will not make anyone the next Spielberg. The people here who are barely scrambling to buy the camera and a still lens adaptor would do better if they used those funds to make their dream film by paying real actors, getting real crew, renting other support equipment and so on. Oh, did I mention a great script?

Red is doing a great job with this camera but there are, by their own admission, many technical issues to be resolved. It will take a while before the system is fully supported and accepted by the industry. The TV industry, for example, is highly unlikely to go down this route any time soon. The 4k resolution is a huge overkill for HD television and the networks and post-houses have entire tape-based and disk-based systems in place, which are tested and work quite well. They need a bullet proof archiving system and at this point nobody can deal very effectively with the amount of data a Red camera in a TV environment would create in just a few days.

So, let anyone run a test and take what you can from it. Is a 35mm film going to fair well compared to Red? Sure. And why not? It is a great medium with the best archiving in existence to date. That doesn't mean that people won't shoot features with Red. Of course they will.

This should not be about THEM and US. About 'let's kick their butt'. Why? Live and let live. Market forces and real results will decide. Eventually digital will be the medium used for most acquisition anyway, there is no question about that. I just really don't see why there needs to be so much animosity. The bottom line is Red is another tool in the box, let's use it as such and not throw away the rest. Oh yes, I should also mention, it shouldn't be "you are either with us or against us". Unfortunately, some people on this board have a tendency to view the world like that.
 
Jim - no worries - Sales and who chooses to shoot RED over Kodak will be obvious soon.

Last time I saw, GM's Saturn was saying they had a better car than Honda and Toyota... Sales are still in Honda and Toyota's favor. Every time a Director chooses RED, Kodak and Fuji are loosing... not to mention Hollywood is going to 4k projection to eliminate film... the last thing they have is to shoot film... they lost the still market, will loose the projection, and in less than 5 years will loose the expensive and grainy production market.

Just ask Kodak - 8 gig flash for $200.00 for 5 minutes and re-usable or $1 a foot or second or about $300 for 5 minutes of film.... roughly... and non re-usable. :-) - oh and RED is 4k when film projected is um... 2k....
 
you gotta look at kodak's past ads on film vs digital/video ...
they tend to list X camera's = 5 stop DR , z camera 2 stops , Y camera 3 stops - many times with some kind of graph , and kodak FILM 66 stops ... or they lump all the video camera's together - video 5 stops - FILM 14 stops ... also they always mention the storage life of film vs digital ...

they are going to only mention the positive of FILM .. IE: (for example only) like when they say sales are up 50% in 2005 since 2002 but forget to mention that compared to 2000 they are down 50% ...
 
Their test is irrelevant.

It doesn't matter because at this stage in the game it's still about economics.

So they can try and bash red on some issues if they want to but it's still about the workflow. With 4K Redcode files you are very close to having what you would have when you scanned film to a DI. The cost to get there is tremendously lower. Bottom line.

I won't have a chance to shoot with a RED until October, so I'm just not ready to have an oppinion on the image quality (I have one, based on footage I've seen, but I'll just wait until I've actually had it in my hands).
But even if RED isn't quite as good as scanned film, (again, withholding my oppinion until it's informed) it doesn't matter because based on the value you are getting per dollar spent on equipment and footage, Jim already sunk their battleship...perhaps by a factor of 10.

And since when does anyone listen to Kodak's marketing. We shoot our own tests, we decide for ourselves. We always rate their film lower than what's advertised anyways, essentially because we know it's BS. They can't even compare their own products, let alone other peoples.

It would be fun though to listen to the guys shooting the test. "WOW: how much does it cost?"

IBloom
 
Hey, I love film as much as the next guy....I think...it's been so long since I've been able to afford to shoot with it that I'm having trouble remembering.

Also, I hear a lot of people talking about KODAK. What does this mean? Is this some kind of in-joke or secret code?

Best,

Jason
 
Basically opinons are like assholes. Everyone has one. The only way to know the truth is to stop reading and to start doing. Shoot your own tests, in your real world enviornments, and formulate your own opinions. Published tests don't mean shit. Real world is where it's at. You are no longer in school and listening to lectures. Practical application time boychicks!
 
Digital aquisition as re-defined by Red has way too many benefits over film for there to even be a hope for the latter. Any informed person will see this. I have so much respect for this project. Can you feel the love? I mean...can you?
 
I don't mind a fair shootout... I just take offense where the guy putting it on dictates the results.

Jim
 
In an interesting parallel, while bidding on an internal video for the USMC, I learned that chemical propellants have reached their velocity limit in firing tank main gun payloads. The USMC (and other departments) have been vigorously pursuing rail gun technology to reach the next level of thrust.
 
WTF< This is what I'm taking about about. See my other threads.
 
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