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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Am I screwing myself?

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Ryan Richardson

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Hey guys, I'm producing a low-budget ($45,000) documentary this summer and I would really respect your guys' opinions.

My planned audio set-up is a Senn. MKH 50 (doing lots of indoor shooting and interviews) hooked up directly to a H4n or a Marantz PMD661. My question: am I wasting my money on a good/great mic by using crappy recorder with no mixer? Could I be better off downgrading the mic and getting a better recorder/mixer? :undecided:

The problem is that I've pretty much hit my max budget for my main audio equipment so the total cost has to hover at about that range. ($1,500-$1,800)

Thanks guys!

P.S. I have two NTG-1s for on-camera (af100 and 5d) mics and a Senn. G3 wireless with a sony Sony ECM-77BMP omni lav mic... and I'm pretty set on keeping those in the list.
 
Ryan Richardson said:
Hey guys, I'm producing a low-budget ($45,000) documentary this summer and I would really respect your guys' opinions.

My planned audio set-up is a Senn. MKH 50 (doing lots of indoor shooting and interviews) hooked up directly to a H4n or a Marantz PMD661. My question: am I wasting my money on a good/great mic by using crappy recorder with no mixer? Could I be better off downgrading the mic and getting a better recorder/mixer? :undecided:

The problem is that I've pretty much hit my max budget for my main audio equipment so the total cost has to hover at about that range. ($1,500-$1,800)

Thanks guys!

P.S. I have two NTG-1s for on-camera (af100 and 5d) mics and a Senn. G3 wireless with a sony Sony ECM-77BMP omni lav mic... and I'm pretty set on keeping those in the list.
Click to expand...

Yeah, you are screwing yourself.

You are going to be collecting a LOT of audio it sounds like, and the audio will probably have more impact on your finished product than the video elements. If your total budget is in the $40k range, then you REALLY ought to be looking to spend more on audio.

Get a real mixer and recorder.

I have an H4N, and frankly I am unhappy with it for a number of reasons. Its given good results on two features and a bunch of other smaller projects, but its also a headache. Kind of like DSLR's in general.

One important feature I'd shop for is timecode in and out. Another is simply proper ergonomics on the unit. By proper I mean you should have all essential controls facing up out of the sound bag towards the recordist/mixer.

I'd look at a Tascam HD-P2. Its just a better solution, while still being economical. If you want to stick with a recorder only. I have a number of issues with that unit, which is why I haven't bought one in yet and sold my H4N.

(Most of my issues are ergonomic. I prefer all my inputs on one side and all my outputs on the other side. Specifically I like my inputs on the left of the unit when looking at the main controls, and the outputs on the right. In fairness, Tascam is probably thinking that you'll use that unit in conjunction with a separate mixer like the Azden FMX422, which I in fact own. The Azden FMX422 is a great deal for the price by the way - but you get what you pay for at $400)

I would REALLY point you at the Sound Devices 744 and/or 788 recorder/mixers. Following that I'd consider the Sound Devices 522 mixer, which also records its mix output, but not any of the inputs. (Ultimately I am hoping to won both a 522 and a 788 or its successor)

I would record the shotgun mics and the G3 receivers into the Sound Devices . You can go ahead and use the NTG mics on camera.

Two mics will serve you much better than one nice expensive mic.

The MKH 50 is a bad general purpose choice. I generally would point you at a longer mic.

I'd aim you at the MKH 60, Sennheiser 416's or Audio Technica 4071. Of those the 4071 is the lowest cost.

I also like the Sennheiser K6 series mics if you are on a budget. For various business reasons (i.e nothing related to audio quality) I own low end Audio Technica mics, and they are just satisfactory. For just a few dollars more the low end Sennheisers are much better to my ear. Having more mics is SO much more important that I'd really recommend you step down in performance just so you can get two.

Why are more mics so important? Placement is key to achieving good sound. If you have to mic multiple subjects with just one mic, you'll end up placing it in a compromised position. Keeping at least two mics in your kit gives you a lot of flexibility. I have 4 shotguns in my mic kit.

I realize that if you follow my advice you'll raise the budget for audio, but I assure you it will be worth it in the end

Try not to look at the purchase of the gear as an expense against the films budget. Buy the gear and "rent" it to the production.

Afterwards, you can either sell the gear, or rent it to the next production you work on- whatever makes business sense.
 
Yeah I'd just rent- you can get a sweet sound kit for that much money for about a month. If you need longer than that- get a 416 and a decent mixer such as an FP33. Otherwise you'll be kicking yourself for wasting the $38,500 you had left over after 'maxing' out your sound budget. Honestly I don't get how people can skimp in this area and not picture. Viewers will forgive/not notice less than perfect image if the sound's alright. That can look intentional. Bad audio cannot ever look intentional.

Noah
 
Hey thanks guys! This is exactly what I was looking for: advice from the pros! Although I am new to a feature length anything, Im a firm believer in audio being much more important than my equally experienced peers perceive it to be. So im with you on that!

I should have been a little more clear on my budget as that includes everything (travel and air fair, food, etc.), not just equipment. We will be shooting for 45+ days across america so i think purchasing is the way to go. My budget is getting tighter but I think i can squeeze a little more out for audio, especially if it means going from a potential "prosumer" feature to a potential "professional" feature, sort-to-speak. Not saying its going to be an Oscar winner, just that if it could increase our chances to be better received as a quality film by viewers, sounds (pun intended) like the way to go.

Good news is there won't be a lot of shots with tons of people. Lots of informal and formal one-on-one interviews mostly, with a few day-in-the-life-of segments following single characters, so I don't believe I will need a ton of pro mics to catch a lot of dialogue between many characters, as there won't (shouldn't) be. The whole idea with the NTG1s is so that my 3 man crew (including me) can split up and still have audio covered, especially for the 5d, if circumstances demand it.

That being said, I'd hate to start another "416 vs the world" debate but I had read elsewhere that it is not good for indoor environments, too echo-y or the tube muddies the sound or something. I'll be shooting indoors mostly; 50% formal interviews in doctors and lawyer offices, etc., and 50% "run-n-gun" and informal interviews in interiors of residential homes and MAYBE some interior car shots or outdoors stuff. Still think the 416 would work?

I guess its time I plug it all in to my B&H wish list, crap my pants after seeing the total :eek6:, regain consciousness and then find a new and effective coping tick.

Edit: I feel like one of those guys that post threads and asking what so great about 24p, except in the audio world. Bare with me, as I do recognize my audionorance.
 
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you don't need mkh 50 - audix sx hyper will do almost the same - about 500 in north sound and light
the ecm 77 is waist of money - you can get better lav for much less - ost mics - ost 40 with windshield and g-3 plug -100 usd
g-3 -480-500 at North sound and light - they are the cheapest iN the bizz
zoom its good idea but if you can record on your af-100, small mixer will be better choice

psc dv mix , sd mix pre or sd mix preD - 450-750 USD .
Dont forget suspensions , boom pole and dead cat for ntg mics .
Dont forget the ntg-1 needs phantom power when you work with d-5.
psc make ph power supply which cost around 120 .
and if you still left with money buy zoom recorder to use it when you like to work separate from the camera ,use it with jack plugs to feed it line level from your mixer xllr outs ( you will need additional 20 db attenuation inside the plugs - 3 resistors in each - to get proper line level for zoom )
BEST
PS If you need more info where to buy or what to buy , you can reech me directly at
kaizero1@gmail.com
Oleg Kaizerman
Kaizeroaudio- sound mixing and rentals in Israel
 
Ryan Richardson said:
Hey thanks guys! This is exactly what I was looking for: advice from the pros! Although I am new to a feature length anything, Im a firm believer in audio being much more important than my equally experienced peers perceive it to be. So im with you on that!

I should have been a little more clear on my budget as that includes everything (travel and air fair, food, etc.), not just equipment. We will be shooting for 45+ days across america so i think purchasing is the way to go. My budget is getting tighter but I think i can squeeze a little more out for audio, especially if it means going from a potential "prosumer" feature to a potential "professional" feature, sort-to-speak. Not saying its going to be an Oscar winner, just that if it could increase our chances to be better received as a quality film by viewers, sounds (pun intended) like the way to go.

Good news is there won't be a lot of shots with tons of people. Lots of informal and formal one-on-one interviews mostly, with a few day-in-the-life-of segments following single characters, so I don't believe I will need a ton of pro mics to catch a lot of dialogue between many characters, as there won't (shouldn't) be. The whole idea with the NTG1s is so that my 3 man crew (including me) can split up and still have audio covered, especially for the 5d, if circumstances demand it.

That being said, I'd hate to start another "416 vs the world" debate but I had read elsewhere that it is not good for indoor environments, too echo-y or the tube muddies the sound or something. I'll be shooting indoors mostly; 50% formal interviews in doctors and lawyer offices, etc., and 50% "run-n-gun" and informal interviews in interiors of residential homes and MAYBE some interior car shots or outdoors stuff. Still think the 416 would work?

I guess its time I plug it all in to my B&H wish list, crap my pants after seeing the total :eek6:, regain consciousness and then find a new and effective coping tick.

Edit: I feel like one of those guys that post threads and asking what so great about 24p, except in the audio world. Bare with me, as I do recognize my audionorance.
Click to expand...
There are ways to do this economically. Have a look at this store http://oktava.com/
The Oktava microphone is one of the better budget mics available. Although not a Schoeps, it can sound very good and this company The Sound Room tests them and makes sure they are good samples. You can get a multi capsule kit too which allows for different needs. I'd also keep an eye out for a used Senn 416 as a good all purpose shotgun. Doing interviews you can use the Oktava in Hypercardiod mode and get it 1-2 feet from talent. Will sound great. Get the baby ball gag for it as it is sensitive to low end rumble, wind, etc.

Get a mixer. Pick up an old FP33 or maybe the Sound Devices Mix Pre or 302. If you have to go directly into camera, at least you have a good mixer to ride levels and get a nice clean output.

I used to have a SD744T. Great recorder, and I regret selling it but I wasn't doing much audio anymore so it sat on a shelf for a while. What a great machine.
 
Ryan Richardson said:
Hey guys, I'm producing a low-budget ($45,000) documentary this summer and I would really respect your guys' opinions.

...am I wasting my money on a good/great mic by using crappy recorder with no mixer? Could I be better off downgrading the mic and getting a better recorder/mixer?
The problem is that I've pretty much hit my max budget for my main audio equipment so the total cost has to hover at about that range. ($1,500-$1,800)

Thanks guys!

P.S. I have two NTG-1s for on-camera (af100 and 5d) mics and a Senn. G3 wireless with a sony Sony ECM-77BMP omni lav mic... and I'm pretty set on keeping those in the list.
Click to expand...

Ryan Richardson said:
... Im a firm believer in audio being much more important ...
Click to expand...
Are even some of the low-end mics that are available today better than the ones that shot Citizen Kane or the Wizard of Oz or Gone With The Wind? Coupled with off-the-shelf software and judicious use and placement of the mics should hold up to audience scrutiny, IMO.
 
Another, similar question: Is it also somewhat pointless to get an entry-level mixer - say a sd302 or MixPre - and pipe that into the H4n as the base recorder? I was under the impression that the H4n just had *inconsistent* (and usually noisey) pre-amps, but as a 96Hz/24bit recorder it's still more than adequate...

My problem is to get the last 10% of quality (visuallly and aurally) costs 90% of the budget. I'd be satisfied with 90% of the quality, assuming that I had spare budget for other aspects (like better actors or secondary audio, like wireless lavs.)
 
The H4n can work that way, but it only accepts line level through TRS Phono, not XLR (input jacks are combo). Then it also needs to be attenuated - I think by 40db, because it still comes in too hot. Google "H4n attenuator". By the time you've added these items, your sound bag gets pretty awkward and the Zoom buttons/menus are indeed troublesome in the field. If you are willing to deal with these and spend some extra time on set making sure you're pushing the right buttons and not pushing the wrong ones at any time, then yes, you can get great results going from a mixer to the H4n.

I keep this setup as a supplement to my 788T kit, but almost never use it that way. It has made sense at times to leave it behind in a mixing booth or attached to a press box. But in a bag I would plan on the buttons getting hit in some way that fouled up a good take or two. Have you thought of tethering a small mixer to a camera?

And if you're looking for one great mic to spend real money on, listen closely to the Sanken CS3e. Many 416's have been traded in on this mic. There are people who even use it indoors to good effect.
 
Crap...

Another question: what's a decent indoor boom mic and what is about the 416 (or even CS3e) that make it less than ideal indoors? I seem to recall it having to do with off-axis noise, but thought that the 416 did a good job of hiding it (which is why so many people use it).
 
You will find far more about the 416 vs. CS3e and indoor issues on some audio forums. Right, something about off-axis bounce in reflective rooms. An ideal indoor mic is the Schoeps CMC641 (541, 441... different amps, same capsule). It has shorter pickup "throw" and is hypercardioid - not much pickup beyond the 2' in front of where you're pointing it. So if you're doing mostly indoor or close-range stuff (where you can hide a mic close to source), Steve Sherrick's suggestion for an Oktava MC-012 is great. It's far less money and a nice little hypercardioid that can be used similar to the Schoeps. It is more sensitive to air movement sounds, so also heed his recommendation for a baby ball gag.
 
To echo everything that's been said, I think a good recorder is a lot more important than the mic. I've been pretty happy with results from a cheap Rode NTG-2 with a Sound Devices 722 recorder, and very unhappy with better mics plugged in to worse recorders.
 
Yeah, the price of a MC-012 (with hypercardioid cap) plus a rycote windsheild baby ball gag is less than a quarter of the cost of schoeps CMC641 kit... I know you get what you pay for, but I mean, DAMN.... Is there a supercardioid cap for the MC-012, or does Oktava only make hypers

Just checked; so supercardioids offer far better reduction from 90deg and 180deg...would that be $1400 beneficial over the MC-012?
 
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Some quick thoughts:

The H4n has pretty crappy preamps. Same with the Marantz PMD-600, but they were much improved on the 661, so if you go that route be very specific about what you get.

The H4n is not very good at maintaining sync over long takes. If you are doing short recordings (2 or so minutes) it'll be fine, and PluralEyes can be used to sync it automatically with a camera reference audio track. If you are rolling continuous takes for several minutes, you can expect the sync to drift significantly, and you'll need to chop those takes up and re-sync them.

Generally you want a shotgun (supercardioid) outdoors and a hypercardioid indoors. A shotgun mic does a good job of rejecting sounds from the side, but indoors the sounds coming from the sides can be reflections from walls of the sounds you actually want to record on-axis, and that can lead to really odd cancellation effects, especially in echo-y rooms.

My budget mic recommendations are the Rode NTG-1 or NTG-2 for a shotgun, and the Oktava MK-012 with hypercardioid cap and high pass (aka low cut) filter. The filter is a must if you are not using a mixer with it built-in. Both mics are about the same diameter, so you can get away the same suspension system for both. Rycote is a good choice for suspension and basic wind suppression, but if you're doing a lot outdoors in the wind, I'd suggest a Rode Blimp as the best bang for your buck at that level.

Don't rule out renting for long periods until you actually get a quote. Ask someplace like Trew Audio in Toronto what their rates are for a complete sound package like their standard or light ENG or documentary packages over the time you need it, and compare it to the cost of buying what will inevitably be less gear of lower quality.
 
Good news is that I just got a bump in my budget for $1000 for audio because of you guys :D And just my luck that my director just bought a Rode Blimp for another project, so I'm good there too.

So I guess next question is if the Oktava would create sound that would distact the audience or bring attention to itself... or if its good enough. Thats the point right? Audio is supposed to not be noticed? in a good way of coarse...

So heres what I'm looking at. I've got $2,500-$2,800 set aside for a main shotgun mic, mixer and recorder. What do I do? Here's what the project will look like:

Ryan Richardson said:
I'll be shooting indoors mostly; 50% formal interviews in doctors and lawyer offices, etc., and 50% "run-n-gun" and informal interviews in interiors of residential homes and MAYBE some interior car shots or outdoors stuff. .
Click to expand...
 
My suggestion: Go to Trew Audio in Toronto. Rent an MKH 416 short shotgun for outdoors, an MKH 50 for indoors, a Sound Devices 302 mixer, and a 702T 2-track recorder with timecode.
Total rental cost: Just under $2,000 for a month. If you need longer than that, ask them about a discounted rate for the time you need it for.

Cost of purchasing the gear listed above: $6,000
 
Due to your budget, I think Stephen's suggestion of renting will produce the best results. Now, if you have multiple projects where this gear will be used a lot, you could potentially justify buying the gear. I know some people like to own gear (I do because I like having it at my disposal at all times for testing and using) but the reality is that to get quality, you still need to spend decent money, and owning the gear can mean some compromises in that quality due to lack of funds. A rental package will give you everything you need, as well as support from the rental company. It can be a better investment of budget.
 
I just called them and they quoted me at $2700 for 45 days. Not bad. Although I would really love to buy the equipment, and my director even more since hes supposed to get the audio gear afterwards as compensation, this looks like the better option. Thanks for tip!
 
Make sure you're covered for all the little extras you may already have, but I didn't see you list: a decent boompole, some good XLR cables (the more time I spent coiling and un-coiling cables all day long the more I developed an appreciation for good cables) and solid headphones.

I think headphones are one of the most important pieces of gear for doing sound, and if you're starting off renting, the first piece of gear you want to buy. Most people choose either the Sony 7506 or Sennheiser HD280. Over time, you get used to the characteristics of certain headphones. You become aware of their unique profile, no matter how neutral they are supposed to be, and learn what to expect from what you can and can't hear in your headphones what will actually be recorded, and how it will all come out in the mix. What is the difference between audio you're recording and what is leaking in through the headphones (no matter how closed they are) and what is the sound of the cable rubbing against things and transferring to the earcups.
It's very hard to switch later. That's why you hear so many Sony vs. Sennheiser debates: both are good, but once you get used to one set, you could really never switch. So pick one and stick with it, whether that's owning them or consistently renting the same type with your sound package. Pay attention to fit - some people find the Senns are too tight for them, I personally find the Sonys too loose.

Most of all, get to know the gear and the techniques. Great gear used poorly will give you poor results. Forums like REDuser are a good resource. If you prefer a book, I believe Trew Audio carries Location Audio Simplified, which is a good primer, and contains some solid tips even if you have a bit more experience. Most of all, ask questions at Trew Audio. There is no such thing as a stupid question, so ask away. I've always found the folks at Trew to be very helpful, and not condescending in the least. You don't have to pretend to be a know-it-all pro in front of them. Every time I've admitted my ignorance of something to them, I've always been rewarded with helpful advice.
 
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