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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

All the Epic/Dragon Vs. Alexa/Sony threads are belong to us...

Mark Toia said:
? what , where, when... ? Have I missed yet another controversial test. ?

Honestly...

16 stops, 13 stops, I don't really care now... The results Im getting are way better than anything I've got from Alexa. And its smaller, cheaper, lighter, more res, blah blah...

These pixel comparo arguments are exhausting. is anyone out there even working. ?

Ok.. now back grading my TV AD, matching GO PRO with Alexa, with 5d, with EPIC... ooooh look at that !!!! Its all looks the the same now :)))))

Everyone Chill. It's only a camera. Its what you capture is what makes you money.
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i'm sorry Marc, but coming from a real authority like you these are dangerous things to say, and as for 5D or goPro looking like Epic, simply not true, not even on a "24 1080p monitor. A 5D is just over SD in resolution, and what little resolution there is is super-aliased. When you get to the color grade 8bit cameras bite you hard in the a-- Maybe I look at the finer points of images more closely, as do the clients my wife and I attract. To me the look is part of that content which is King. We're not in the radio or novel-writing business.

To me saying it all looks the same is like saying that Boise is the same as Paris, because "cities are cities and who cares", or "wine is wine, why pay more than $5 a bottle?"
 
Robert Ruffo New said:
i'm sorry Marc, but coming from a real authority like you these are dangerous things to say, and as for 5D or goPro looking like Epic, simply not true, not even on a "24 1080p monitor. A 5D is just over SD in resolution, and what little resolution there is is super-aliased. When you get to the color grade 8bit cameras bite you hard in the a-- Maybe I look at the finer points of images more closely, as do the clients my wife and I attract. To me the look is part of that content which is King. We're not in the radio or novel-writing business.

To me saying it all looks the same is like saying that Boise is the same as Paris, because "cities are cities and who cares", or "wine is wine, why pay more than $5 a bottle?"
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Rob, I think Toia is having a bit of fun. I read some sarcasm in his comment. As in..he'd rather NOT be matching all these cams.

That said, point taken. Yes, "look" is a huge part of "content" becoming "king". For sure. I agree with you 100%. Owning a Scarlet has upgraded my content 10x over. W/ out a doubt.
 
Robert Ruffo New said:
It is absolutely because they do not know how to use the camera and are trying to pretend it is a 5D or a Betacam. WIth non-RAW cameras, what you see is all you will ever get, with Red, there are more goodies waiting for you in post than what you can see on a monitor.

Wavefomrs from the video feed are ludicrous when shooting RAW. They are only "informing" you about the metadata settings.
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You are being... misled.

The ALEXA is a "raw camera". As is the F65. Funny that their respective log video outputs match their "raw files" in post. Also funny that a waveform monitor works perfectly both on-set and later in post with these cameras. Does a waveform "work" with an EPIC? Not really. It's almost futile. Is it because "there are more goodies in post than what you can see in the monitor" or is it because the EPIC does not provide a full-range log video output of scene captured dynamic range?

dot dot dot ...
 
Adrian Jebef said:
For me it's about transparency. Both the ALEXA and the F65 are transparent cameras. What I see on-set I also see in Post. The R1 was as opaque as you can get. The DRAGON looks more and more promising every month.
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Hey Adrian, curious. Has Dragon improved its "transparency" in your eyes over Epic MX? If so, what new adustments are helping with this? Would love to know more. thx!
 
Nick Morrison said:
Hey Adrian, curious. Has Dragon improved its "transparency" in your eyes over Epic MX? If so, what new adustments are helping with this? Would love to know more. thx!
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Truthfully the whole transparency thing has more to do with developing a consistent "log-esque" workflow for the EPIC or DRAGON (from set ie: camera / to post: ie RCX or Resolve or whateva) than it has to do with upgraded hardware like a new sensor. RED has always pushed the importance of a "raw workflow" over a "video (or log) workflow". Technically they're right but practically the best way to monitor/expose/previsualize a "raw camera" is to use a "log camera". And these are NOT exclusive approaches. You can have both. I think it's gonna take more of an effort on RED's part to re-code how the EPIC/DRAGON outputs video (ie: RedLogFilm) from the camera on set as well as adding proper 3D LUT and CDL support (basically changing the log video output into a consistent-looking picture / same idea behind the ALEXA's Log C and rec709 toggle for it's on-camera video outputs).

I had a DRAGON on our camera truck for a couple of days but its unfortunately flown away to do another movie somewhere up north. Bummer. So I haven't been able to play with the beast as of yet. But I have high hopes...
 
Adrian Jebef said:
Truthfully the whole transparency thing has more to do with developing a consistent "log-esque" workflow for the EPIC or DRAGON (from set ie: camera / to post: ie RCX or Resolve or whateva) than it has to do with upgraded hardware like a new sensor. RED has always pushed the importance of a "raw workflow" over a "video (or log) workflow". Technically they're right but practically the best way to monitor/expose/previsualize a "raw camera" is to use a "log camera". And these are NOT exclusive approaches. You can have both. I think it's gonna take more of an effort on RED's part to re-code how the EPIC/DRAGON outputs video (ie: RedLogFilm) from the camera on set as well as adding proper 3D LUT and CDL support (basically changing the log video output into a consistent-looking picture / same idea behind the ALEXA's Log C and rec709 toggle for it's on-camera video outputs).

I had a DRAGON on our camera truck for a couple of days but its unfortunately flown away to do another movie somewhere up north. Bummer. So I haven't been able to play with the beast as of yet. But I have high hopes...
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Great. Thanks for the feedback, and for continuing to push workflows you think are missing/needed. Much appreciated.
 
1614201_10152278044145126_1297698563_o.jpg


(rightclick to watch)
 
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All files will be made available. This is an example intended to show off the differences.
The resolution of the F55 is good.
After looking a bit, there are other beefs I have with that camera.

Looking at other parts of the image, they would be more similar at this kind of exposure.

All the "good" cameras are "good" now. Good, but different.
Things will only get "better"

Shot at 4k BTW


Gunleik Groven said:
1614201_10152278044145126_1297698563_o.jpg


(rightclick to watch)
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Gunleik Groven said:
And F55 - The pitfalls of cameratesting... :)

http://blog.gunleik.com/?p=1196
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I see some aliasing on both cameras on the Nr. 5 circles.
Look like the OLPF of both works the same.
Stange that you also get that (on the same spot) on the Dragon (if proven) even considering shooting at a grater resolution the the F55. Any thoughts?

Patrick
 
Patrick Tresch said:
I see some aliasing on both cameras on the Nr. 5 circles.
Look like the OLPF of both works the same.
Stange that you also get that on the same spot on the Dragon (if proven) even considering shooting at a grater resolution the the F55. Any thoughts?

Patrick
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If that is from the 1080 1:1 crop, that is due to scaling on both.
at 1:1, both cameras outresolve the chart, so it isn't really easy to see much difference between them resolution-wise. That is partly why I wanted to shoot some practical things, too.

At UHD both look fine, even with heavy unsharp mask, my guess is that that is because both cameras outresolve the chart.

The impact of ADD: (rightclick and view in separate window)

a1afdd9337bd799b80610b2d61ae3d9294dba3d9.jpg


I hope I am done with this part of the comparison over the weekend.

gotta be a daddy now...

Just a tease.
 
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Did you check from the fullraster examples supplied? These were scaled with Photoshops "best for downscaling" option (Dragon/UHD), NO scaling in the F55 UHD example.

For 1080 both are scaled with photoshop "best for downscaling" option.

I see the same thing, BTW, just on my way out the door and have closed down the files. :)
 
WOW. Gunleik these comparisons are so helpful. Helps me understand a bit more of what Geoff Boyle means when he suggests how clean Dragon is.
 
it is interesting to see the difference in performance under test/chart conditions and practical images for the F55.
trying to find out if we shot WO OLPF. but even if we did, it seems kinda steep.

it is a consistent tendency in all the images i have, though.

the alexa does "as expected", really.

there was a surprise cam doing a lot better and worse than expected, but the results are so erraric, i have decided to not use them.

g
 
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