All the Epic/Dragon Vs. Alexa/Sony threads are belong to us...

[David Battistella]

That is IF Alexas Luma-range is the view we want to have as the point of reference for Dragon.

This is something I wonder about. Why is Alexa the "gold standard"? Is it because that is what people are choosing? To me, the high end stuff I have seen captured with either system is really stunning. We live in pretty good times when it comes to digital imaging.

I actually think it's much less about imaging capability and much more about (PERCEPTION ABOUT) workflow.

Battistella

 

[Gunleik Groven]

And simplicity to use on the kind of sets Alexa is much used for.

When ACs love RED, a lot will be done.

The colorists I know, generally are very happy to work with RED (EPIC and R1) material.

When the GPU acceleration comes out and gains ground, that will be a great bonus.

Anyhow. This is the thread with other cameras involved.
And the CML thingy is in many ways informative, whichever camera you focus your analysis on.

I have BTW seen some interesting developments of the lowest exposure, but I'll leave it to the one who did them to post them.

 

[Paulo Emílio]

Its very interesting how the talk has polarized in the Alexa vs Dragon. Did you guys see the others cameras ? For me C500 has the best resolution, very sharp but the DR is crap and the image I just don't like it. Sony is a video camera, hard images. And Alexa is great like Dragon is also great. For me is something is beyond the numbers, is the texture and the sensation of the images. There is some cameras has magic images, like the old RED ONE M. I love that camera and ready to love Dragon.

 

[Medavoym]

As of "now", I see more DR in the Alexa.
Currently, from what I see, the alexa records both higher and lower luma values. No "but" to that.

Thank you Gunleik for being very straightforward and clear with your answer. I appreciate it.

Well, I don't want to sound like a bad sport, but the results are clearly a disappointment to most of us on reduser.

Sure - I totally get what you, David, Phil etc are talking about - all of those are really valid points. Yes, there is more to the Dragon camera than hard numbers, there are many other advantages over Alexa, etc etc etc. That's true. However, the fact that Dragon still doesn't even match the DR of Alexa (both in highlights and in shadows!), not to mention surpassing it, is a total surprise (I wouldn't use the term "shock").

We've been told repeatedly that Alexa is a 14-stop camera and Dragon is supposedly a 16+ stop camera.

We can talk about having the special knowledge of "unlocking" the Dragon's DR, we can talk about using specific lighting for Dragon, or using specific development methods for Dragon, just to make it shine and stand out. The truth of the matter is, there is something wrong with the numbers above. Either Alexa is NOT a 14 stop camera, or else Dragon is NOT a 16+ stop camera, if the results of the test are what we see.

I love RED and of course I will choose Dragon over Alexa for all the other advantages (price as well). Those advantages are undeniable and RED has probably moved mountains to make them happen - hat's off to them! However, everyone expected Dragon's DR to far exceed Alexa's DR, and it is still inferior. It's a major surprise. First, because DR is the most important feature people are looking at when choosing high-end cameras (justifiably or not, that's another discussion). And second, because - after a very, very, very long wait - we've been expecting just the opposite results.

Again, RED has produced what it looks to be a sensational camera in so many other aspects. But why the heck can't it STILL match/surpass Alexa in DR?

 

[Brad Hawkins]

To me, the high end stuff I have seen captured with either system is really stunning. We live in pretty good times when it comes to digital imaging.

I actually think it's much less about imaging capability and much more about (PERCEPTION ABOUT) workflow.

I've been feeling the same way for a while now. In fact, all these tests and our collective obsession with them (myself included) are sort of like an episode of Top Gear, and we're Jeremy Clarkson watching 'The Stig' (Geoff and Gunleik I suppose) drive these "Super Cameras" around a track (the test) and after lap after amazing lap in the end we conclude by saying this super-camera is worse than that super-camera because it was 1/10th of a second slower around the track.

But in reality they're all amazing options to have!

I'm not suggesting we shouldn't have the tests or these discussions about them, I enjoy all of it! Still, its nice to remember that we have an embarrassment of options available to us today, and that's the best part of all of this.

 

[Laco Zamba]

Thank you Gunleik for being very straightforward and clear with your answer. I appreciate it.

Well, I don't want to sound like a bad sport, but the results are clearly a disappointment to most of us on reduser.

Sure - I totally get what you, David, Phil etc are talking about - all of those are really valid points. Yes, there is more to the Dragon camera than hard numbers, there are many other advantages over Alexa, etc etc etc. That's true. However, the fact that Dragon still doesn't even match the DR of Alexa (both in highlights and in shadows!), not to mention surpassing it, is a total surprise (I wouldn't use the term "shock").

We've been told repeatedly that Alexa is a 14-stop camera and Dragon is supposedly a 16+ stop camera.

We can talk about having the special knowledge of "unlocking" the Dragon's DR, we can talk about using specific lighting for Dragon, or using specific development methods for Dragon, just to make it shine and stand out. The truth of the matter is, there is something wrong with the numbers above. Either Alexa is NOT a 14 stop camera, or else Dragon is NOT a 16+ stop camera, if the results of the test are what we see.

I love RED and of course I will choose Dragon over Alexa for all the other advantages (price as well). Those advantages are undeniable and RED has probably moved mountains to make them happen - hat's off to them! However, everyone expected Dragon's DR to far exceed Alexa's DR, and it is still inferior. It's a major surprise. First, because DR is the most important feature people are looking at when choosing high-end cameras (justifiably or not, that's another discussion). And second, because - after a very, very, very long wait - we've been expecting just the opposite results.

Again, RED has produced what it looks to be a sensational camera in so many other aspects. But why the heck can't it STILL match/surpass Alexa in DR?

Well said

 

[Kemalettin Sert]

results are clearly a disappointment

Dragon is not NEW CAMERA.Epic is 4 years old camera same like Alexa.its just sensor upgrade unlike ARRI does.Honestly i think Red Epic is now on same par with Alexa Dynamic range and Color.(lets dont talk about resolution etc.)
i dont know what you expected with Dragon sensor.RED Epic beating Alexa on every aspect you can think about and its 3-4 times cheaper than competitors camera.Its like dream right?Why we have Arri then? these are the tools all of them has unique advantages and disadvantages.Choose whichever you need most its just simple.
RED promised us its gonna be better than Alexa? i dont recall that.
4 years ago--> http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?47529-EPIC-and-Alexa&p=627850&viewfull=1#post627850
One thing to remember is that RED believes that resolution matters
i think they were very very clear on this and i just dont like seeing people on Reduser and commenting like RED is a evil company cheats us.

 

[Humberto Ramos]

What if, Arri would release a new camera in a couple of months that could do 6K with the DR and Highlights of the Alexa, at the price of a DRAGON CF, what would be the advantage of having a Dragon?

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Chill down a bit...

I have actually seen some of the new fun.

And to me, Dragon is anything BUT disappointing.

Don't mean to sound like I am on repeat, but I do not shoot "numbers"...

 

[Tim Morten]

Dragon hasn't been fully unleashed yet, but it will, and when it does we will look back on this debate and chuckle. I firmly believe the potential is there (Jim clearly showed us the DR on his test before retiring from the forum), and I firmly believe it will be tapped.

Meanwhile, Dragon is producing beautiful images, higher resolution, weighs less, costs less, and generally kicks ass. I couldn't care less about Prores. R3D is so widely supported at this point, and so much more powerful, Prores is nothing more than a final delivery format.

This whole discussion feels premature. New olpf coming, new board programming, new color science. I have absolute faith that Dragon is a better sensor and Red a better camera.

 

[Martin Stevens]

Thank you Gunleik for being very straightforward and clear with your answer. I appreciate it.

Well, I don't want to sound like a bad sport, but the results are clearly a disappointment to most of us on reduser.

Sure - I totally get what you, David, Phil etc are talking about - all of those are really valid points. Yes, there is more to the Dragon camera than hard numbers, there are many other advantages over Alexa, etc etc etc. That's true. However, the fact that Dragon still doesn't even match the DR of Alexa (both in highlights and in shadows!), not to mention surpassing it, is a total surprise (I wouldn't use the term "shock").

We've been told repeatedly that Alexa is a 14-stop camera and Dragon is supposedly a 16+ stop camera.

We can talk about having the special knowledge of "unlocking" the Dragon's DR, we can talk about using specific lighting for Dragon, or using specific development methods for Dragon, just to make it shine and stand out. The truth of the matter is, there is something wrong with the numbers above. Either Alexa is NOT a 14 stop camera, or else Dragon is NOT a 16+ stop camera, if the results of the test are what we see.

I love RED and of course I will choose Dragon over Alexa for all the other advantages (price as well). Those advantages are undeniable and RED has probably moved mountains to make them happen - hat's off to them! However, everyone expected Dragon's DR to far exceed Alexa's DR, and it is still inferior. It's a major surprise. First, because DR is the most important feature people are looking at when choosing high-end cameras (justifiably or not, that's another discussion). And second, because - after a very, very, very long wait - we've been expecting just the opposite results.

Again, RED has produced what it looks to be a sensational camera in so many other aspects. But why the heck can't it STILL match/surpass Alexa in DR?

PLEASE remember that the Dragon has a new OLPF and Color Science that was not used in the CML test, and that
this new OLPF and Color Science finally bring out the Dragons power.

 

[Humberto Ramos]

I'm also fan of RED, even just having a RED ONE, but the true is that those tests also have been very disappointing to me, I intend to upgrade my gear in a near future, and now even knowing the Dragon is better than MX I don´t know if I should buy an EPIC MX or Dragon, and keep dreaming with Alexa highlights, or if I should wait for a 4K+ Alexa...
I will wait for new OLPF tests and keep wishing it would get close to the Alexa Highlights..

 

[Tim Morten]

What if, Arri would release a new camera in a couple of months that could do 6K with the DR and Highlights of the Alexa, at the price of a DRAGON CF, what would be the advantage of having a Dragon?

But then Arri would be hypocrites, because according to them we don't even need 4k!

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I'm also fan of RED, even just having a RED ONE, but the true is that those tests also have been very disappointing to me, I intend to upgrade my gear in a near future, and now even knowing the Dragon is better than MX I don´t know if I should buy an EPIC MX or Dragon, and keep dreaming with Alexa highlights, or if I should wait for a 4K+ Alexa...
I will wait for new OLPF tests and keep wishing it would get close to the Alexa Highlights..

That is the problem with tests, they only test for what we test for.

I have said a number of times that I would have taken the Dragon even if it was 5K and did NOT have better DR than the Epic.

There is soooo much more to the image than the DR which is in a league of its own.

1+ stop difference in the top compared to the Alexa currenty, does not change that.

i would have had it with the current OLPF, even.

Chill down...

 

[Humberto Ramos]

But then Arri would be hypocrites, because according to them we don't even need 4k!

Yes they will be hypocrites, I say will cause we all know they will release it, its just a matter of time...

 

[luigivaltulini]

Today I had 30 minutes of time with a Alexa ..
We tried quickly Sekonic DR .. here is the result ..

I think it's quite up to date with what we've seen so far.
I am also waiting for the new OLPF and calibration ... and then we'll see.
Even if I do not give a fuck if Alexa now has 1 stop more ', but I understand the people who now claim the numbers, but it's always been this way, Arri more' conservative, RED and a bit over the top.
However, I repeat DRAGON is definitely better in the eyes of the monitor and color grading in all directions. This is what I see and it is definitely what you'll see once you arrive in DRagon.
I'm not worried about the DR, I am convinced that RED is working to improve this and we will see improvements during the year.
Now for me the important thing and 'improve workflow, and streamlined to be faster now without Redrocket.

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[Brad Hawkins]

What if, Arri would release a new camera in a couple of months that could do 6K with the DR and Highlights of the Alexa, at the price of a DRAGON CF, what would be the advantage of having a Dragon?

Arri has clearly chosen a specific path with Alexa and that is to provide a rental only camera (yes I know there are always exceptions, and some people do own it), but I don't imagine they'll provide a camera in the Dragon CF price range other than the upcoming Amira – which is obviously anything but 6k.

Arri seems to enjoy their pricing where it is, I don't imagine they'll be offering their flagship camera line any cheaper for many years.

 

[Adrian Jebef]

I've toyed with the DRAGON frames a bit in RedCineX but I am basically getting the same results that I got in Resolve. I'd love to see if anyone else is getting different results. That being said, the DRAGON does have a very, very nice "feel" to it. The image is sharp and contrasty yet I'm not noticing the "hard edge" that I sometimes get when shooting with the SONY F65 or F55. This is all subjective analysis from someone who has worked with these top-end cameras day in and day out. At this point in my career I'm much more interested in how I'm subjectively "drawn" to a camera's images vs. how "technically" superior/inferior they may or may not be.

A quick note about how the ALEXA makes images: ARRI has been at this game for a long time. The company has specialized in digital log encoding and printing with their ARRISCANNERS and ARRILASERS. The entire back-end processing of their D-20, D-21, and ALEXA cameras are all based on years and years of refining Cineon Log encoding/decoding. The ALEXA, though a linear CMOS-based camera, is basically designed to produce an extremely well-rounded Cineon (log) image range. For every frame the ALEXA captures it reads out that frame in 2 steps: basically a high gain and low gain exposure. These readouts are then merged to produce the camera's overall dynamic range and image data. Subjectively, I've found the ALEXA to behave very closely to an 800 ISO camera in most shooting situations. However, on occasion, during high-contrast scenes with extreme over or underexposure I've found the camera uniquely capable of somehow bringing back certain highs and lows in a very "organic" way. In contrast, the SONY F65 actually exhibits more DR and high/low tolerance but it's overall image tends to "look" much more "linear" than "rounded". Again, these are all just non-official, non-technical musings of some guy on the internets...

 

[Humberto Ramos]

Arri has clearly chosen a specific path with Alexa and that is to provide a rental only camera (yes I know there are always exceptions, and some people do own it), but I don't imagine they'll provide a camera in the Dragon CF price range other than the upcoming Amira – which is obviously anything but 6k.

Arri seems to enjoy their pricing where it is, I don't imagine they'll be offering their flagship camera line any cheaper for many years.

Agree, but what if?

 

[Brad Hawkins]

Agree, but what if?

Yeah, but what if the world ends tomorrow? :smilewinkgrin: