ALEXA vs RED thread in Creative Cow

[Daniel Dávila]

Hy everyone.

Just to let you know there's an interesting discussion going on in the Creative Cow forum, Michael Bravin from ARRI and Robert Monaghan from Gluetools are kindly answering some tech questions.

I'm concerned because I make RedRocket digital transfers and color grading from REDCODE RAW to Prores QT's in a regular basis (I also rent a Red One) and I'm sure the Prores output from the Alexa will be widely used because, despite the fact it will be limited compared to ARRIRAW, it's supposed to be good enough for fast and cheap TV commercials, so, no transfer will be needed (and no Red One rented).

I'm also in Stage 2 for the Epic, at least the Proxies Module sound interesting to compete, but it's H264...

My personal opinion is that a well worked RAW image in post will always be better than a on-set closed (like video) QT image, because of time constrains and limited monitoring. But it will be faster and cheaper and will look "fine", so, it will be widely used.

Any Thoughts?

Greetings from Santiago!

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Short of putting a ProRes converter on the camera, I suppose the next best thing is for transcoding using RedRocket to get fast and cheap enough that whoever is doing the data back-ups on set can deliver a ProRes version to the client not long after wrap (depending on how much footage is shot near the end of the day.)

Also, EPIC and Scarlet will have a 1080P RGB record mode, won't they? Maybe that will be in a format easily digestible by an NLE.

I'm sure solutions are going to show up soon, even if they are after-market.

 

[Mark Pugh]

I asked Ted on Friday about a Pro-res module, as I'm concerned that the Alexa's pro-res files would be a deal-maker for many. He talked up the Red rocket as a viable alternative... and then told me that a Pro-res module is in the works. Made my day.
I think a Pro-res module will be VERY important for the Epic, even though it shouldn't have to be.

 

[David Battistella]

He talked up the Red rocket as a viable alternative... and then told me that a Pro-res module is in the works. Made my day.

Ted has told me this as well. RED listens. If it is something their customers want and need I am sure they will find a way to get it done. Remember, TED came from AJA, who make the KiPro, (a compact Prores based recorder) so the engineering might not be very hard for a module.

The EPIC has the horsepower needed to drive it.

1080P RGB (AKA PRORES 4444) will be recordable.

David

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

You don't need ProRes module today with RED1.

Just connect HD-SDI (also can be a pretty long BNC cable) to AJA HD-SDI to HDMI converter and then to your MacPro desktop with BM Intensity Pro card and with it you can directly feed FCP with ProRes 422 or capture your footage at ProRes 422 in FCP.

Another solution is AJA KiPro ProRes recorder that also accepts both HD-SDI and HDMI.

Matrox MXO is one mobile solution that can be connected with AJA HD-SDI to HDMI converter...

Then I did long ago HD-SDI to AJA Kona 3 recording but don't remember now exactly how it worked but will do it soon because my MX RED is already in custom office in Vienna back from upgrade in California.

There are probably many other solutions to get ProRes from R1 directly and also wireless using Gefen stuff...

Stay tuned.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

It's an interesting read.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Short of putting a ProRes converter on the camera, I suppose the next best thing is for transcoding using RedRocket to get fast and cheap enough that whoever is doing the data back-ups on set can deliver a ProRes version to the client not long after wrap (depending on how much footage is shot near the end of the day.)

Also, EPIC and Scarlet will have a 1080P RGB record mode, won't they? Maybe that will be in a format easily digestible by an NLE.

I'm sure solutions are going to show up soon, even if they are after-market.

Delivering 1080 prores for offline at the end of the day, everyday as it is.
A prores modul would be a good thing, though...

 

[Daniel Dávila]

on-set prores

on-set prores

I agree a mobile RedRocket Station is a very good option, and maybe it will be no more expensive than the Prores module of the Alexa. And if it's driven by a trained DIT with a good monitor, it will give better results than a in-camera setting. Anyway, an on-board recording solution will look simpler (and cheaper). I hope the Prores module for the Epic appear in time, just for marketing...

 

[Mark Pugh]

I think that both the Redrocket and the DIT may appear to be cumbersome and expensive accessories to many producers in the near future, if not already. I'm not saying they are right, but...

 

[Maz Mawlawi]

Well we also have to see how much ALEXA will be rented for....the camera is much more expensive and for "fast and cheap TV commercials" it still maybe cheaper to go the RED/EPIC way...but certainly an affordable and portable ProRes or CINEFORM module would be a welcome addition to the RED/EPIC cameras.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I think that both the Redrocket and the DIT may appear to be cumbersome and expensive accessories to many producers in the near future, if not already. I'm not saying they are right, but...

Agree.
They're very high on the cut-list.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

My thoughts on the subject... :


Alexa vs Epic is going to be THE buzz of the next year.
And none of them are publicly out yet.

Except for Jim & co + Offhollywood, Steve Gibby on the RED side, Michael and the Arri Staff + their select beta-testers, very few of us really know what we're talking about here... Even fewer have had long sessions with both systems at this stage, and - if any - they probably are under deep NDA's.

I am in the RED camp, just to be clear. Have a R1, go for Epic and work in RED-centric environments, currently on a TV-series for NRK (nrk.no) recording on two R1s + 5D.

That said. I am looking foreward to play with the Alexa.
I think it will be a great cam, and I see that ACs love the D21 for it's "standard features, OVF and film-camera feel of operation".
Actually I think both cameras will be rather cool to have... -

Here's a couple of off-hand thoughts, though.

Prores.
I think RED will have to do it, and it is recently confirmed that they're actually are doing it right now. This feat looks so sweet from the outside, and will be "good enough" for a lot of projects (more on that later... -

That said: I deliver 1080 prores HQ files as offlines and 640 h-264 for dailies at the end of the day for the 2-4 camera (depending on day) TVC I am currently on.

Transcoding 5k in realtime will need an upgraded rocket. So I guess we will see an upgraded rocket about at the time we see the first release Epics...

As long as the transcode is realtime, copyspeeds are more of a bottleneck than delivering offline files directly off set.

Even with an extremely small crew (DOP + on-set editor) we managed to set up a workflow without a rocket that gave us 3 copies + offline files @ the end of the day on a feature in Northern Iraq.

The "record prores" argument to me sounds more sexy, than I think it practically is.
Still I think it will be an extremely good sellingpoint. (even when the producers loose the RAW option, because it will be too expensive to practically go for)


Formfactor.
This is a draw - to me.
The compact/lightweight setups possible with the Epic has become more of a dealmaker to me, than it innitially was.

On the show I am curretly on, they've opted for a couple of 5D's in the soup because they fit in "anywhere". The image quality of the 5D is... not good. Pulling focus on it is nigh impossible (the 5Ds are rigged down to a minimum, that's the whole purpose...)

Still a very experienced DP and a - in Norwegian Context - very high end production company opt for the 5D for its size and sensor-size. Line-skipping, moire, jello images, h.264 and all.

The possibility of landing these shots with a good camera with a good set of post-choices is in my opinion a big argument for the Epic.

After dragging my R1 around the world for almost 2 1/2 years, I also look foreward to being able to just "grab a cam and shoot", which will be a lot easier with the Epic.

Alexa will undoubtedly be "like a filmcamera" out of the box. AC's especially love "no-bullshit filmcameras".

Epic will be possible to assemble "film-style", but the out-of-the-box experience of Alexa will probably be very appealing to a lot of customers.

RAW
Not being an engineer, I won't attempt on arguilg which is "better". They probably both will be quite cool.
To me and the settings I've been working in - the "Compressed RAW" has been what has made it all possible, though. There aren't a lot of SR/Codex decks lying around in Norway. And I will never have one. Thus, to be able to work with RAW at all - for most projects - is a clear advantage towards Epic. For me.

Also seeing how the image actually can get better over time as the debayer/developing algorithms gets better, is quite an argument for RAW. For me...

VS DSLRs
Seeing how DSLRs are "good enough" all of a sudden, I think the possibility to put on canon/nikon glass and pull focus on a touch-screen on standard still-glass, is a good move.
It's happening, and I think this is a trend that it will be hard to get rid of.

DR
Seems to aim at about the same goal...

Workflow:
Prores is simple
Simple is good for a lot of applications.
I assume both will record prores @ release...

As for RAW, there just isn't that many options for uncompressed RAW around here. I dig compressed.

Almost anything supports redRAW in some kind of native way by now. FCP seems to be the one getting first in and now being the worst option. Either Apple will fix that, or AVID/Adobe will get a whole new and quite big userbase jumping ship the next 6 months. That is really more of an Apple problem, than a RED problem though.

Online, REDRAW is by now uncomplicated and the options are plentyfull - as they are with ArriRAW (I guess)
Looking foreward to test the new Resolve... -

Pixelcount...
I don't really care too much for counting pixels.
But Norway (like Belgium) go 100% digital for screenings within the next year.

As long as it holds up on a 4k screen it is not really an issue for neither commercials nor features.

DCMC
To me this is like prores.
It's nice. Not a dealmaker.

OVF
Will be available for both cams at a price

4:3 sensor-option
A smash-down win for the Alexa for anamorphic shoots.
RED has announced - but not shown - a set of anamorphic lenses for the RED. Will be interesting to see...

Economics.
RED has fitted very well into smaller markets where equipmentprices are a big part of the production budgets. AFAIK there's 1 Scratch here, quite a few Nucodas, a couple of pablos, quite a few Smokes.

Let's face it, Norway isn't really Hollywood. The total population is even less than London or Berlin. The RED has fitted very well into the sizes and budgets we're working on here. The Alexa seems to partly address that. It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out. My guess is that the bigger productions will go Alexa. For conformity. The one D-21 here is constantly rented out. But quite a few of the 60'ish R1s is rolling, too...

Well, these are my 2,5 cents...

Cheers!

Gunleik

 

[Mark Pugh]

My thoughts on the subject... :

4:3 sensor-option
A smash-down win for the Alexa for anamorphic shoots.
RED has announced - but not shown - a set of anamorphic lenses for the RED. Will be interesting to see...

You're pretty on the money. great post.

I think the obvious success/ appeal of the 5D's FF35 sensor, and having that height on the Alexa, will prompt Red to bring out the FF35 sooner rather than later. A FF35 Epic (with the Pro-res module) would have advantages in every facet over competitors coming from both ends of the market.

 

[David Battistella]

Agree.
They're very high on the cut-list.

Yes.

With Alexa they will have to still do back up of PRORES, so data is still going to be backed up.

DIT/Colorist on set will become harder to justify.

Let's also not forget that you won't be recording ARRIRAW and Prores as easily as you will be recording REDCODE RAW and Prores, H.264 or AVID DNXHD (Ted said they were working on that too) with RED, which could make it MUCH more post production friendly than ALEXA.

David

 

[Mitch Gross]

Never understood why it has to be X versus Y for people, or "I'm in this camp."

I like cameras. I like lenses. I like tripods, follow focuses, matteboxes, tungsten lights, HMIs, jib arms, Steadicams, etc., etc. For one job I may prefer X and for the next Y. To choose just one is to limit myself, and frankly I'd rather be an artistic slut and really sleep around. Whatever works best for me for a given job, that's the best tool for that job. And let me tell you, there will never be a single tool that always best fits the bill.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Never understood why it has to be X versus Y for people, or "I'm in this camp."

I like cameras. I like lenses. I like tripods, follow focuses, matteboxes, tungsten lights, HMIs, jib arms, Steadicams, etc., etc. For one job I may prefer X and for the next Y. To choose just one is to limit myself, and frankly I'd rather be an artistic slut and really sleep around. Whatever works best for me for a given job, that's the best tool for that job. And let me tell you, there will never be a single tool that always best fits the bill.

I am "in the RED camp" because I have one, and will continue to, and probably won't be able to work RAW on an Alexa.

I DO think the Alexa will be great, though.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Guys,

recording ProRes on the card is a sort of "Trojan Horse" trick from Arri.

They want to get in The RED City of Troja desperately and now using that sort of Trojan Horse trick.

But the reality is that from almost any camera that has HD-SDI or HDMI out you can DIRECTLY means REAL TIME ProRes 422 record in FCP

Timeline window with just one converter (AJA, or any other capable) and any HDMI capture card in your desktop MacPro or even laptop with

Matrox MXO using just any BNC cable even 50m+... long (somebody should correct me with that cable size longness).

Also don't foget that with RED1 you can simultaneously record 4K REDCODE and ProRes 422 with any of those solutions decsribe many times at my posts.

But with Alexa can't happen without "hooking" pretty expensive HD-SDI portable recorder to get Arri RAW or uncompressed HD.

It that case RED is cheaper and also makes future proof 4K size beautiful or "Biutiful" Inaritu like a movie(ing) pictures.

Again Arri Alexa does not do any of these things together at all without getting deeper in your pocket.

 

[Jay Gannon]

On set coloring I think will fade away apart from network TV, Digital Asset Managers will become more and more important I feel though. Running the Digital Loading, the backups, the on set wireless, the directors monitors etc
This is from a Euro perspective where we have more sway in our job title and description btw.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Guys,

recording ProRes on the card a sort of "Trojan Horse" trick from Arri.

They want to get in The RED City of Troja desperately and now using that sort of Trojan Horse trick.

But the reality is that from almost any camera that has HD-SDI or HDMI out you can DIRECTLY means REAL TIME ProRes 422 record in FCP

Timeline window with just one converter (AJA, or any other capable) and any HDMI capture card in your desktop MacPro or even laptop with

Matrox MXO using just any BNC cable even 50m+... long (somebody should correct me with that cable size longness).

But with Alexa can't happen without "hooking" pretty expensive HD-SDI portable recorder to get Arri RAW or uncompressed HD.

It that case RED is cheaper and also makes future proof 4K size beautiful ("Biutiful" Inaritu like) pictures.

Again Arri Alexa does not do any of these things together at all.

Sanjin. That works... ok...
There are a couple of catches, though.
That we are all aware of, so I won't bother listing them, 'cept saying that a full debayer on-cam prores 444 proxy recorded isn't too bad an idea...

 

[Albert Armes]

Has anyone seen what the in camera debayer looks like on Alexa? I'd think that the quality of the prores output would be dependent on how good an RGB image the camera can make?

Albert