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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Alexa Vs. Epic Vs. Scarlet Continued...

While I can understand concerns, I'm just curious why professionals look at a size of a camera as a sign of being "pro" rather then its abilities? I realize that wasn't the entire point of your argument and it maybe out of context but I'm just curious as to the reasoning behind this idea,
Wouldn't it be easier to mount and use the EPIC, being a smaller size, on many different things etc. your abilities are only limited by your imagination (and obviously the laws of physics),

The scarlet, while I agree would take a lot of the R1 market, it isn't entirely out of place for R1s to get cheaper for rental. However, I do think RED is preaching more on the way in which you want your content to be handled, i.e. either you stay in 1080p and upscale to 4K or start in 4K and go down and have the master 4K for when everything catches up. Similarly, the Scarlet is for those that want a foot in the door for RED with resolution. So Scarlet is 3K, not far off 4K but still, there would be a market for both as entry points into the realm of Ultra HD. The EPIC would take over from there as tech for consumers becomes cheaper etc.

At the same time both share a small form factor, as you expressed this isn't ideal for professionals. Though once again, many had said when Scarlet was announced it would work great as a B cam, in the middle of explosions etc. cause of the design and form factor of the body, same with EPIC. The difference being the price and a Scarlet is cheaper to replace so putting it in such a secnario seems understandable, though obviously this isn't the reason it was created I'm merely suggesting it works great for the low cost it would take to replace it.

Now cost aside, the small form factor is obviously an option. If you add the volts onto the back, plus the I/O module etc. (both of which have only been seen with RED and not currently in pictures supplied by the EPIC-M crews, as far as I know) you end up with a size similar to that of RED One... the EPIC alone is naturally smaller but the simple reason being this can be used on anything and is for everyone. All pros... I'm sure there are some that use the R1 on wedding shoots and there is obviously photography done with the R1 as well as the obvious film, I'm sure I'm missing stuff out but you get the idea, everyones using the R1 for something other then the original intentions. Along comes EPIC, a body customizable to fit all Pros alike... Scarlet to suit the indie crowd or those pros that want a B cam perhaps...it is obviously still a piece of professional equipment.

I agree maybe some Pros may find it daunting at first, the tons of buttons and the small size seeming a bit DSLR like but keep in mind, the EPIC-M people didn't have a manual to work with and its been used on big budget films already, Spider man being one. So Pros that have had hands on seem to be finding it ok, I'm assuming but feel free to correct me...
The DSLR body will take some getting use to but it is a revolution and evolution of technology... its probably for the best...the lighter something is, the more portable, the more potential it has or probability of greater potential...

I do love my R1 but the size of the EPIC and its abilities are far more appealing...I'm definitely getting a scarlet to boot :D
 
It's really easy to make a camera look bigger (and "professional") when needed. Add a big matte box, big lens, redvolt module, IO module, etc... and the camera end up being comparable if not slightly bigger than an Alexa or Sony cam.....on the other hand, it's not possible to shrink an already big camera if you ever need it smaller..... Thus I like how the Epic is design as it gives both options!
 
Any professional who choses Alexa over EPIC because "it's bigger" or "it looks more professional" is a professional I do not want to work with. There are many valid reasons to chose a camera system, one looking more pro is not it. That's like refusing to edit on a laptop because "that's not how professionals do it" ...

EPIC will be able to make images that are truly astounding, but more than that, it will also be able to make images no other camera system in the world can! Put in the right hands this camera will change it all and being narrow minded about it just means that it won't be possible to utilize it in the many creative ways possible. Also, what you need and what I or anyone else needs might not correlate - really, the EPIC appeals to a much wider crowd than one - so you're making a very wide net there with what everyone needs...
 
I film in remote areas. The smaller the better - end of argument.

With all due respect, I can't see how small penis syndrome argument would convince a real professional otherwise. :rolleyes5:
 
Perhaps my intentions as to comments on size are mis-representing... It's more of a possible offering as to why Alexa is so much more appealing to many professional right now... The "look" of a bigger camera certainly wasn't my point... Accessing menus & buttons for many was... I do this every day on the RED ONE... just offering a reason why many are using the Alexa over a camera that does have better specs.

Getting the EPIC on huge movies is great I certainly agree but I do not think that this speaks to the majority of users or work flows. I would however be curious to know if these huge productions are paying for these EPIC cameras or rentals or if RED is letting them use them for free for the tremendous press & credibility that it gives to the product... Either way I think it's good.

Regarding this camera will be used for this and this camera used for this... I do not think it's that cut & dry in the majority of the production market. You currently have RED ONE guys competing against Sony F3 guys for work. Budgets often dictate which cameras will be used over who's got the best specs... My point is that with the Scarlet, Epic & One all having well beyond what the majority of clients think they need spec wise, the lines between these products and other vendors products gets fairly blury. Scarlet only magnifies this...

Perhaps in the end none of this matters... Just my two cents... May not be a popular opinion... just an opinion...
 
You make some decent points but I think you honestly lost almost everyone right here:

Russell Fogle said:
When I got my RED ONE I purchased Arri’s biggest matte box (MB-14) and put a big Cooke 18-100 on it making my camera 3’ long & 47lbs. Why you ask? because I never want to be mistaken for a guy that shoots wedding videos for a living. One of the reasons that I bought my RED PRO PRIMES is because they are a big, formidable looking pieces of professional equipment.
Click to expand...

Is large size and looks really the "because" you're using that gear? Or is it performance?

As everyone has noted, Epic is modular -- thus the lightness/small size is optional and welcomed in many, MANY situations ... from 3D, steadicam, ENG, and so much more.

You are honestly the first person I've actually heard complain about it's size.

I think you should rethink some of your comments and you'll get better response on this thread.

Anthony
 
I thought The Scarlet is not gong to have a PL mount anymore, this is a deal breaker for many DPs when going against Epic. I was happy to learn about this, because it splits the markets nicely.

The size of the Epic is going to change how we rent things out, lighter payload for: cranes, tripods, car rigs, etc. Maybe instead of investing 25 k on Mattebox, FF, Head and tripods; we could be investing less. This increases my ROI. I'm sure we can still use the heavy Calvary for Epics, put we open the possibilities for truly portable work.

One of the biggest advantages of Red relies on Redcode .R3D deserves an Oscar, and after seeing the delivery files .RED I know that Red has such an advantage over it's competition it is unbelievable. HDRx is also incredible, no other company has this software, workflow advantage.

If they decide to present this with a Tattoo parlor set it's all right. Maybe next year they will Komodo dragons on NAB! But please keep the magic code flowing.
 
Russell, you have made some compelling points over the past few days. I know where you are going with the size comments, and the quick access to functions, etc. In the case of DSLRs, I have found the small size to be very misleading because every production I have been on that was using these professionally with FF, audio, etc the camera needed to be built up much bigger than advertised. One shoot in particular I was ready to offer my R1 for free because it was so ridiculous looking. In the case of Epic however, it's in the flexibility. There are times when I would love a small version of my R1 that doesn't have I/O and various connectors. Just a much simpler camera I can grab very nice shots with without calling attention to myself. I don't think that would take away the professionalism from me. For those times when we need to build up the Epic to a camera ready for the rigors of battle, i.e. life on the set, we can add I/O and all the other modules, accessories, etc needed. No one will mistake it for a cheap handycam. It will look like a decked out professional camera.
 
Russell Fogle said:
...(loose the "Revolution" Gen X" attitude stuff that scares away so many really good professionals.) ...
Click to expand...

Most professionals didn't come from a family with producer connections or even with much money...if any at all.
So I think alot of them relate to Red coming from out of nowhere and trying to do something really big and
different cause it's what most of them did themselves in their own lives. No wonder Red has established
relationships with directors like Peter Jackson and S. Soderbergh...they came from far..far from
Hollywood like half way around the world..and yet both wound up with Academy Awards. So I
think people can identify with the upstart image and attitude because it mirrors exactly what they
wound up doing themselves. They can appreciate a camera company with a less square image
because they themselves are not such square people.

In your original post you kinda put the "too cool for school" tag on Red NAB staffers which
to me is just unjustified and so way off base. Sounds like you are someone who judges
books by the cover or people by their tattoos if they have any.

As to Epic being too small...well here is from Darius Wolski ASC..

"In my opinion, the new Red Epic camera is about to revolutionize all spectrums of the film industry.

I am going to use Epics in my new project directed by Ridley Scott. I am amazed with the quality of the image
and the fact that you can shoot 5k at 120fps without compromising resolution, and most of all the size of the camera.
Combined with the Element Technica Atom 3d rig, we will be able to shoot a 3d movie with the flexibility of a
conventional cinema camera.

I don't see anything that comes close to it at the moment. I can't even imagine the potential Epic will have
on the big blockbuster industry as well as independent cinema."
Click to expand...
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?53072-Ridley-Scott-and-Dariusz-Wolski
 
Steve Das said:
Most professionals didn't come from a family with producer connections or even with much money...if any at all.
So I think alot of them relate to Red coming from out of nowhere and trying to do something really big and
different cause it's what most of them did themselves in their own lives. No wonder Red has established
relationships with directors like Peter Jackson and S. Soderbergh...they came from far..far from
Hollywood like half way around the world..and yet both wound up with Academy Awards. So I
think people can identify with the upstart image and attitude because it mirrors exactly what they
wound up doing themselves. They can appreciate a camera company with a less square image
because they themselves are not such square people.

In your original post you kinda put the "too cool for school" tag on Red NAB staffers which
to me is just unjustified and so way off base. Sounds like you are someone who judges
books by the cover or people by their tattoos if they have any.

As to Epic being too small...well here is from Darius Wolski ASC..

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?53072-Ridley-Scott-and-Dariusz-Wolski
Click to expand...

As they like to say in Spanish ... "exactamente!"

Anthony
 
I agree with Russel. A fully equipped studio camera like Arriflex or Panaflex is a prestigious symbol for high-class feature film production and a reliable camera system is the key element for a trouble free shooting. I guess many Redusers are dreaming to be photographed behind a Panaflex one day. How ever I cannot imagine too many top cinematographers framing their shots thru a handheld EPIC. The true professionals are no shooters and do not need the all-in-one camera. It is too much of a compromise. We are working in a conservative business. In terms of size and weight the Alexa is in between an Arri 416 and Arri 235 and is a silent camera. These cameras are built to about four main shooting configurations: studio, handheld, steadicam and 3D. Thousands of movies have been shot in this way. No need for 100 or more different EPIC configurations. Ask professional camera crews, it is a waste of shooting time.
Until today Arri has constantly improved their camera design and the Alexa is quality wise outstanding. With much more interesting innovations to follow soon. http://www.fdtimes.com/news/arri/arri-alexa-optical-viewfinder/ In my opinion the new Red cameras are coming too late to the market. And even if you get an EPIC tomorrow, when will you finally receive your accessories (ask Brent for the delivery time of an EVF for Red One)?. The fact that Russel’s thread got closed is not a good sign.
Sometimes I get the impression on this forum that Red has invented the one and only camera on the market. Let us wait until the complete product line is out in the real world. And until then do not forget that there are still many films to be shot on 35mm film.

Alexander Bscheidl

Camera Technician
 
Just a thought, if we were to have reversed this, say that the style of the EPIC, the size and custom potential were what cameras in the past and until today are like and then along came say, the Alexa and other onslaught of much bigger cameras, would this argument still be the same?

In terms of the controls, surely we should wait right? As far as the feedback goes from those with EPIC, they seem to be pretty ok with it and I'm sure if they find ways to make it simpler they would, a ton of buttons gives ability to quickly get to places in the menu or adjust between two different settings (assumption, I haven't played with one but they did say highly customizable). So you could make it as simple or as difficult as you want and RED does listen to feedback so its always possible to make these things easier...
 
just because it's easy to hand hold epic doesn't mean you should at all times, and should not mean people will use it more than is called for or is necessary. Amazing what people can turn into a negative.
 
Alexander I respect your opinion, and I agree that a significant section of the industry is conservative and looks back towards what has worked in the past, but with respect your conclusion is opposite to that which many high end DP's have reached based on their practical experience of reliability, light weight, mobility, dynamic range, color fidelity, resolution with RED cameras.
 
I for one really hope Arri keeps working on innovation, I think Red is forcing them to step up their game and healthy competition is good. They still have a ways to go in terms of producing a true 4k camera -- and I wholeheartedly agree with Jim that 2k will look/feel like SD to us in the not so distant future. But I'm sure they see the writing on the wall, and I wouldn't doubt that they have a 4k or 5k sensor in the works as we speak.

However, some of your comments are a bit strange -- like this:

Alexander Bscheidl said:
I guess many Redusers are dreaming to be photographed behind a Panaflex one day. How ever I cannot imagine too many top cinematographers framing their shots thru a handheld EPIC. The true professionals are no shooters and do not need the all-in-one camera. It is too much of a compromise.
Click to expand...

Hmmmm ... yes Panavision has a great name, but not sure if Redusers "dream" of that. Also, you cannot imagine top cinematographers shooting in a handheld Epic? Well, it's happening now ... check with Brook and Peter regarding what's happening on Spiderman, and all the other features being shot on Epic now by top cinematographers. Not all "handheld" -- of course. But considering how easily 5k Epic's can be shoulder-mounted on a 3D rig, it's obvious to see why all these huge budget 3D features are using them.

And if portability weren't important, why would Arri have developed the Alexa M? (which must be tethered to the main body by a cable.)

Again, I doubt it ever would have happened had the Epic not paved the way and made them want to fight for more 3D market share.

I guarantee that future editions of Arri's, Sony and other pro cinema cameras will be more portable and more modular. It's the future, pure and simple.

Anthony
 
Julian Banos said:
I thought The Scarlet is not gong to have a PL mount anymore, this is a deal breaker for many DPs when going against Epic.
Click to expand...

Scarlet Cinema interchangeable model will support the same interchangeable lens mount options as Epic, plus the Red mini-PL mount, so PL is an option for Scarlet.

Jarred posted a link to an ARRI white paper on film scan digital work flows to illustrate the rationale for high resolution acquisition. To get the best MTF and image quality for 2k DI work flows, ARRI recommended 4k scans of 35mm film and 3k scans of 16mm film. I thought this was an interesting correlation with 4k/5k S35 and 3k 2/3" spec targets for Red's cameras. It gives some insight into how they were thinking about the different models.

As for me, the smaller and lighter the better within reason. But I don't have to impress agency hacks or producers either. I look at Scarlet as a proper digital replacement for my old Bolex in both size and performance. After playing with and learning Redcode raw work flow I personally don't care to go back to any form of encoded video acquisition.
 
Russell Fogle said:
Perhaps my intentions as to comments on size are mis-representing... It's more of a possible offering as to why Alexa is so much more appealing to many professional right now... The "look" of a bigger camera certainly wasn't my point... Accessing menus & buttons for many was... I do this every day on the RED ONE... just offering a reason why many are using the Alexa over a camera that does have better specs.

Getting the EPIC on huge movies is great I certainly agree but I do not think that this speaks to the majority of users or work flows. I would however be curious to know if these huge productions are paying for these EPIC cameras or rentals or if RED is letting them use them for free for the tremendous press & credibility that it gives to the product... Either way I think it's good.

Regarding this camera will be used for this and this camera used for this... I do not think it's that cut & dry in the majority of the production market. You currently have RED ONE guys competing against Sony F3 guys for work. Budgets often dictate which cameras will be used over who's got the best specs... My point is that with the Scarlet, Epic & One all having well beyond what the majority of clients think they need spec wise, the lines between these products and other vendors products gets fairly blury. Scarlet only magnifies this...

Perhaps in the end none of this matters... Just my two cents... May not be a popular opinion... just an opinion...
Click to expand...

Huge movies will use whatever they can afford and works. I don't think a camera freebie would sway 100 million dollar pic like Spiderman as much as the small form factor that is a big plus for 3D rigs. Most of these big budget films cited by Red seem to be 3D features and I can see why - those rigs are as bulky as it comes. When I recently lost a R1 rental to F3's it wasn't a budgetary concern in terms of which one was cheaper. After all the accessories and glass, the price package was marginally different. They just wanted the F3 for simpler workflow - justified or not. The SxS cards were converted at 5x realtime on set and they were assembling edits before we'd even break set ups. This was a full union studio 3 camera show.

Re: Alexa, I've used it a few times and do prefer over my R1 for about 90 % of the work I do for many of the usual reasons cited. I've yet to use the Epic. It's been getting raves from the fashion world out here and mixed from the commercial DP's I know and work with. But my guess that maybe from not seeing it all the way through grading. Rare these days a commercial DP gets to sit in on color correction, these days. I haven't seen it in action for a feature. For me the exciting part is it's size. No matter how you slice with a full crew or not, smaller gear works faster. Quickly to whip around, get into tight spots, onto rigs, etc. I'm also really hoping the new Intel processors, Thunderbolt and FCP X will make for a realtime edit from R3D so I don't have to hear the currently valid transcoding sucks arguments.

My 2 cents.
 
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