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Affordable 4k camera

Jonathan Yonkers said:
Hi, this message is for Jim Jannard.

Hi Jim, I mainly make my living shooting weddings and events. Ever since I discovered RED several years ago, I check this site 5 to 10 times a day.
I shoot all my work in Canon DSLR cameras, because getting a Scarlet or Epic does not fit in the budget range I work on.

Is there a way that RED in the future may come up with a new camera that can record affordable 4k below $5k?

This seems to be a subject that ussually starts controversy in this forum. Controversy is not what I am looking for. All I am looking for is for a camera that can shoot great video and that I can afford.
  • 4k at 24
  • up to 60p at any size
  • A good codec that we can grade in
  • $5000 or less for a ready to shoot camera (+ recording media)
The options you currently offer are much better than this and I love that. I just can simply not afford it.
I know what what you have done so far is incredible. No kidding! So my questions is: why stop there?

I feel a bit neglected, because I love shooting quality footage that CAN actually be graded, but my options are clear:
  1. RED, Arri cameras are at a price range I can not afford
  2. Canon, Sony and all other cameras are way too poor in quality codecs and too expensive
  3. Ask you, to see if an other option can be achieved and created
I dont actually expect an answer to this post. I just hope that you can at least think about it.
The same way you love Apple, yet, you wish they gave you what you need, I also love RED and wish RED could manufacture a camera I need.

Thank you so much for your time. I love your work, your philosophy and your products.
Click to expand...


Hi Jonathon,

I assume you are pretty young, by the nature of your question.

Why not offer 2 prices and ask your clients to pay you more to rent Red equipment,
and deliver the product that fits their budget?

If they say yes, you'll have your desire satisfied...
 
Jonathan Yonkers said:
Hi Steve, if I asked RED to sell me a brand new Epic at 70% off, your example would apply. I am not. I am asking Mr. Jannard to consider coming out with a whole new camera that caters to film makers like me, who shoot more budget productions.

Mr. Jannard is a great business man. We all know that. We also know that for every person in the world who loves filmmaking and actually owns a RED ONE and above, there are at least 1000 other people in the world who are just as exited about making films, but actually own a Canon 5d or lower.

This is how I see it:

Scarlet mini
-4k at up to 30 fps (I would ask for just 1080p, but we all know what Mr. Jannard thinks about 1080p so I wont even go there)
-up to 60p at 2k or at any size
-keep enough high cost options out to keep price and complaints down
-selling price $5000 ready to shoot + media sold separately

Since the camera model would not make a lot of money per sell, it would sell by the millions per year as opposed to the thousands per year, so it would make plenty of money regardless.

RED already did try this, and it was not worth their time. I get this. Some time has passed by and tech only gets better. My only request is to consider it.
Click to expand...
Am I right to assume that the Red One used is of no interest due to size, EOL, etc? There are some packages that are falling into that $5-6K range at the moment. But a lot of filmmakers I talk to coming from DSLR backgrounds do not want a camera the size of a Red One. So, again I think the best option is either a BMCC or maybe a used Scarlet.
 
There's also the KineRAW by Kinefinity. Will test the KineRAW Mini next month. Saw it last week at Kamera Ludwig Berlin... quite heavy, but the built quality looks ok. There will be a firmware upgrade to 4k soon for free.
 
Hey Jonathon,

I'm fairly new to this as well. There have been some crude answers to your question and some very pertinent answers too.
One that sticks out is the statement about the process of making 4k footage. With a DSLR, like my Sony Z5 (I do weddings and corporate too) you take the camera and shoot. Then you edit..

Have you thought about the prores route? I started with an Atomos Ninja which made my footage 4.2.2 and very gradable.

Just to give you the heads up on expendature, whatever camera you start with. I've added
V-Lock batteries $500
Lenses (Canon L and Zeiss ZE) $4000
Matte box $400
Formatt HDND filters $500
Arri Follow Focus $1300
rig (different bits and bobs) $500

Win8 PC to edit. $2000

So thats over $8000 for a basic shooting package on top of the $17000 for the Scarlet. But your $5k camera still tops $12k before you start.

Shooting Red/Arri is taking a step both forward and backward. Forward into the world of 4k but backwards into the realms of 35mm film production, multi-crew operations etc.... SO very far from simple DSLR shooting.

So consider the BlackMagic models or save,save,save and get the camera you aspire to own... It took me just about 18 months of saving and weddings/contracts to get where i am today - at the beginning...

Simon
 
To follow up my earlier post

what is "affordable" ranges person to person and production to production...

Is an Alexa affordable, how about a C500? Maybe the Zeiss Master Primes you got are affordable... Affordable is a very ambitious term... is what I am driving at...


Should a person buy a Red to shoot skate videos for youtube, probably not...But the videos rock. I haven't made a penny back yet, but at a certain point forget the business mentality, shoot your kids, your wife, your girlfriend, your pet... They work mighty fine for non professional work as well. I was recently talking to a professional photographer in my area and he was going on about how his art matters more to him than all the clients work in his multi decade career... In the end these are just tools, but tools can work for philanthropy, for fun, for youtube lol, its like a proverbial hammer. If you can't get a Red now, but like the image quality/specs/raw whatever it is, just wait for another deal like they had on the Red One Mx. If they have a ton of MX spare DSMC units I suspect the same limited run liquidations might be possible, but no time frames or notice is ever given, so you gotta keep ready for BT deals, or 4k for 4k deals...I mean that Red One MX deal was basically the best thing they ever ran as far as price point goes I think...
 
BMCC or Kineraw is your best options. Otherwise you just rent the Scarlet/ Epic for the job if your client is willing to pay extra.
 
BMC is not a bad option. The camera is just a tool. What's going to sell is your portfolio. Lot's of people in your market don't even know what a RED is. Lighting, composition, story come first. Camera's are getting cheaper and the market is going to be flooded with them, it already is. Just wait, 2 years BMC might have 5K at 120fps and the RED you want now will be worth $1000 dollars. If you really want to invest buy lenses. You'll have a better chance of renting those to all those guys out there with 4K cameras shooting with DSLR lenses, and they will not depreciate in value the way your camera will.
 
Jonathan Yonkers said:
Hi, this message is for Jim Jannard.

Hi Jim, I mainly make my living shooting weddings and events. Ever since I discovered RED several years ago, I check this site 5 to 10 times a day.
I shoot all my work in Canon DSLR cameras, because getting a Scarlet or Epic does not fit in the budget range I work on.

Is there a way that RED in the future may come up with a new camera that can record affordable 4k below $5k?

This seems to be a subject that ussually starts controversy in this forum. Controversy is not what I am looking for. All I am looking for is for a camera that can shoot great video and that I can afford.
  • 4k at 24
  • up to 60p at any size
  • A good codec that we can grade in
  • $5000 or less for a ready to shoot camera (+ recording media)
The options you currently offer are much better than this and I love that. I just can simply not afford it.
I know what what you have done so far is incredible. No kidding! So my questions is: why stop there?

I feel a bit neglected, because I love shooting quality footage that CAN actually be graded, but my options are clear:
  1. RED, Arri cameras are at a price range I can not afford
  2. Canon, Sony and all other cameras are way too poor in quality codecs and too expensive
  3. Ask you, to see if an other option can be achieved and created
I dont actually expect an answer to this post. I just hope that you can at least think about it.
The same way you love Apple, yet, you wish they gave you what you need, I also love RED and wish RED could manufacture a camera I need.

Thank you so much for your time. I love your work, your philosophy and your products.
Click to expand...

I'm gonna be the outsider here, but many of my friends are very successful in the Wedding/Event shooting game and I cannot in good conscience recommend a RAW camera for such things. The event turnaround as I know it is insanely fast for that kind of workflow unless you want to literally throw money or manpower at it.

You need to think big picture here. Ergo and files size/workflow are key. Compression need not be evil.
I like the FS700 for this kind of stuff. Its got an amazing image, is reasonably priced, easy to use and has framerate options that are unmatched in its class. Yeah, its not raw, but who the f*ck cares if the results are great and you can capture the moment beautifully and deliver it to your clients at days end. I believe it also has a 4K option as well...though I havent looked into it that much.

The other camera I have recently been re-surprised by, is the C300/C100. I hated the idea of these cameras when they came out, but have you used one? They're ergonomically wonderful all by themselves. So easy to hold and shoot with...a good built in evf, solid sound, super easy workflow. The HD size and 8bit file is a bummer, but I've seen great work shot with them.

Thats my two cents.
 
Precisely what i was thinking---why shoot 4k for a wedding shoot? Unless the couple have a theater with a 42' screen? My guess is that they will share it on youtube, facebook et.al. Basically all web based and maybe on their 70" home television....no need for 4k here as i see it. and not to mention post times involved to work with 4k and then pump out 1080p files. Oh....and you'll need $10k or more worth of computing power to do such turnarounds.

I just don't see it for wedding work....am i missing something?
 
I don't see any good argument for 4K with wedding shoots... You can't deliver better then BluRay when it comes to offline media and for 2K or 4K most of your audience won't even have proper devices for playback in full resolution anyways?

Better stick to Prosumer-Camcorders, DSLR or BMD maybe...
RED ONE would get you started in the 4K world at the desired price-point if you don't mind (highly) used equipment but it's totally not a camera for handheld work so it won't fit your needs at all...

And personally I'd rather go a route with optical image stabilization in-camera or stuff like that when doing event/wedding-stuff (Sony has some nice new stuff out regarding that)...
 
I think 4k for wedding might be the norm if the client is willing to pay extra to have 4k footages ( everyone know that 4k TV is going to be the norm and wedding is usually happen once(if not few times) in your life, so why not shot that in 4k?). The think is that going 4k will require lots of money for post production, etc... not suitable for limited budget $5000.
 
I want a set of Master Primes for $5k. 5 lenses for $5k, why is that so hard to do Arri? I WANT it.
 
I'm dying to take the Scarlet along to a wedding... Just dont have balls as per the above arguement of workflow and turnaround.

My Scarlet now looks like a fully fledged Hollywood camera with mattebox/FF/ rig etc hanging off and most of my clients really DON"T want that "in your face" type coverage... I can be subtle with the Z5 even with Ninja attached.. Not to mention simple zoom lens and not having to stop to change prime lenses.

HOWEVER.. I think this is all going to change as Jack says.... As 4k becomes the norm for viewing in-home and even say, Youtube, then watch this space!

(sounding like an old man!) with the way the youth of today is growing up wanting to be a celebrity or popstar, it wont be long before the requests for celebrity-style feature-film weddings starts... Then God help us all !!

Simon
 
Ah... I get it. For a while there I thought I understood what you wanted, as I thought you were a stills photographer who wanted a high framerate in a silent camera. But now I understand (hopefully correctly) that you shoot video and want something better than a DSLR.

Well, IMHO, why not an FS700 that Paul recommended? I think he's right about delivery - very few people are going to worry if it's just HD. What you want is better DR than what you're getting now, I suspect. Perhaps DR is better than resolution for what you're doing.

If the BM camera delivers what you're looking for, then that's great - but it means you can't shoot with a RED camera (as nice as that would be). FWIW I probably would have bought the 3K Scarlet had it been released. Two of them, actually. :-)

Oh, and BTW, I can tell that one smart-alec hasn't read the thread. If you don't like the OP's question, either report it if it's offensive; give a reasoned disagreement; or just bugger off.
 
Peter Stelzhammer said:
I don't see any good argument for 4K with wedding shoots... You can't deliver better then BluRay when it comes to offline media and for 2K or 4K most of your audience won't even have proper devices for playback in full resolution anyways?
Click to expand...

There are ways of delivering 4k to the home, the issue is not delivering to the home it's them playing it, the screens are the issue more than giving them 4k footage. Given the price hike a lot of companies round here charge for a bluray over a DVD, it wouldn't be that big a hit to me the producer to just put in a large capacity thumb drive or even an external hard disk, hell a small premium (which people asking for 4k would probably pay) and I'd get more.

But assuming a 1080p delivery, there's plenty of advantages to a 4k shoot (though they may not outweigh the disadvantages). 4k tends to produce a better 1080p image, it certainly gives you punch in space, ability to add post stabilization, greater latitude in most areas. This all comes at the expense of storage space, time and editing power. I suspect a bigger argument against 4k for weddings is that a significant portion of the market is asking for DVDs not BluRays.
 
Peter Proniewicz-Brooks said:
ability to add post stabilization
Click to expand...
ok - but please tell my why I would need post stabilization if I shoot with a camera like the HXR-NX30E with a real "floating" lens? I can even jump around like crazy with this little cam and it will feel like a steady-shot (ok, maybe I'm leaning a bit out of the window here but you get the idea)... Sure; 4K is more "future-proof" -> the question is; do people pay me just once now for a "baked-in" product or do they re-pay me a few year later for a higher-res version? I think in 50% of the cases it's more realistic to be asked for 2nd wedding-video after a divorce from one of my earlier clients :D
 
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