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Affordable 4k camera

J

Jonathan Yonkers

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Hi, this message is for Jim Jannard.

Hi Jim, I mainly make my living shooting weddings and events. Ever since I discovered RED several years ago, I check this site 5 to 10 times a day.
I shoot all my work in Canon DSLR cameras, because getting a Scarlet or Epic does not fit in the budget range I work on.

Is there a way that RED in the future may come up with a new camera that can record affordable 4k below $5k?

This seems to be a subject that ussually starts controversy in this forum. Controversy is not what I am looking for. All I am looking for is for a camera that can shoot great video and that I can afford.

  • 4k at 24
  • up to 60p at any size
  • A good codec that we can grade in
  • $5000 or less for a ready to shoot camera (+ recording media)
The options you currently offer are much better than this and I love that. I just can simply not afford it.
I know what what you have done so far is incredible. No kidding! So my questions is: why stop there?

I feel a bit neglected, because I love shooting quality footage that CAN actually be graded, but my options are clear:
  1. RED, Arri cameras are at a price range I can not afford
  2. Canon, Sony and all other cameras are way too poor in quality codecs and too expensive
  3. Ask you, to see if an other option can be achieved and created
I dont actually expect an answer to this post. I just hope that you can at least think about it.
The same way you love Apple, yet, you wish they gave you what you need, I also love RED and wish RED could manufacture a camera I need.

Thank you so much for your time. I love your work, your philosophy and your products.
 
I think the Black Magic camera is perfect for you and will be available soon. Or look for used Scarlets, but be prepared to spend a lot more to make it functional. I doubt very much RED will make cameras to compete in the ever growing low budget 4K camera market.
 
So basically you want a brand new shiny apple computer for the price of a couple of years old stationary hackwack pc....

I do not see those kind of deals too very often. :)
 
The upcoming BMPC (the BMPC not the BMPCC pocket camera) fits almost all of your requirements perfectly.

When it's available (slated for July, I'd look to August or September assuming they have better luck with this sensor manufacturer) it looks to be perfect for you.
 
The rule to go by when shopping for camera gear...

Rule #1: Buy what cost way more than what you actually can afford, then at least there is a chance that you only cry once...
 
Another vote the BMC camera. It's in your price range and will work very well with the DSLR gear you have now. The bmcc will be the natural step up from DSLRs to 4k cinema.
 
The BMPCC is 4k and fits those specs like others have said. One thing to keep in mind though, with any of these cameras you need to be prepared for the amount of data they will produce. You will probably end up with terabytes of data from a wedding instead of just gigabytes. I just shot some stuff with the 2.5k version of that camera, looks awesome, but the data consumption is insane. It is worth it, just something you can't ignore any more as part of your production budget and fees.
 
Jonathan, this is meant to be a respectful response to your question.

Imagine a prospective client coming to you and asking the following:

We love your wedding films. We want you to film our wedding. But we need you to do it at 70% discount. How do you respond to that potential client? Do you laugh at them and say go find someone else to do your wedding? Do you consider it for a moment? Do you have a threshold that you can't go below because it just doesn't make sense for you.

I would suggest that RED actually did consider this market for a little while with the 3K for $3K Scarlet. Ultimately they decided that it wasn't going to be worth it for a variety of reasons. Will they reconsider in the future? Maybe. Will they do something that will make them lose money? No. Jim is a businessman. He's a filmmaker too, but he has to do things that make business sense.

Blackmagic Design is able to make a 4K camera that they can sell at a price in your budget range. Have a look there. But I highly recommend that you do a detailed budget as to exactly what it will cost for you to produce videos with that camera between accessories, media storage, computers, etc. If it's still an attractive option, you have your answer.

I know we live in a time where we all want the best at the lowest prices. And RED was able to break down some barriers for independent filmmakers. But again, think about your own business. How low is too low?
 
I would check to see if they have any Red One M (non MX) available still. Maybe they will give you a deal on one... Or go for the 4kBMC
 
Jonathan Yonkers said:
The same way you love Apple, yet, you wish they gave you what you need, I also love RED and wish RED could manufacture a camera I need.

.
Click to expand...

Well, I love Aston Martin and Ferrari and wish they would manufacture cars for $1000. But I don't realistically expect that to happen.
 
Hi Steve, if I asked RED to sell me a brand new Epic at 70% off, your example would apply. I am not. I am asking Mr. Jannard to consider coming out with a whole new camera that caters to film makers like me, who shoot more budget productions.

Mr. Jannard is a great business man. We all know that. We also know that for every person in the world who loves filmmaking and actually owns a RED ONE and above, there are at least 1000 other people in the world who are just as exited about making films, but actually own a Canon 5d or lower.

This is how I see it:

Scarlet mini
-4k at up to 30 fps (I would ask for just 1080p, but we all know what Mr. Jannard thinks about 1080p so I wont even go there)
-up to 60p at 2k or at any size
-keep enough high cost options out to keep price and complaints down
-selling price $5000 ready to shoot + media sold separately

Since the camera model would not make a lot of money per sell, it would sell by the millions per year as opposed to the thousands per year, so it would make plenty of money regardless.

RED already did try this, and it was not worth their time. I get this. Some time has passed by and tech only gets better. My only request is to consider it.
 
Hi Ferrari, I'm having trouble picking up chicks, can you design me a kick ass sports car that will get their attention and make it the price of a honda civic?

Seriously through, there is good advice in going for the black magic cam, or even posting of DSLR boards about better codecs. I think your aiming a bit high to wish for 4k at that price point though.
 
Jonathan Yonkers said:
Hi Steve, if I asked RED to sell me a brand new Epic at 70% off, your example would apply. I am not. I am asking Mr. Jannard to consider coming out with a whole new camera that caters to film makers like me, who shoot more budget productions.

Mr. Jannard is a great business man. We all know that. We also know that for every person in the world who loves filmmaking and actually owns a RED ONE and above, there are at least 1000 other people in the world who are just as exited about making films, but actually own a Canon 5d or lower.

This is how I see it:

Scarlet mini
-4k at up to 30 fps (I would ask for just 1080p, but we all know what Mr. Jannard thinks about 1080p so I wont even go there)
-up to 60p at 2k or at any size
-keep enough high cost options out to keep price and complaints down
-selling price $5000 ready to shoot + media sold separately

Since the camera model would not make a lot of money per sell, it would sell by the millions per year as opposed to the thousands per year, so it would make plenty of money regardless.

RED already did try this, and it was not worth their time. I get this. Some time has passed by and tech only gets better. My only request is to consider it.
Click to expand...

Not sure the 70% discounts all that far off. In the car example, making a Ferrari for Ferrari money is often easier than making a civic for civic money, especially if your R&D and engineering departments are geared towards the Ferrari engineering end.
 
Hi Michael, I do agree with you about aiming to high/asking for too much for too little. No surprise there. Asking for only 1080p would solve that, but then again... I am happy playing by the rules, since I am a guest and not the owner of the playground.

Asking for 4k under $5k would probably be not realistic. How about under $7500 ready to shoot + media?
The fact is, the technology is there for these things to happen. Yet, they do not exist yet. Therefore my frustration.
Black Magic seems to be a possible option, sure. But their record so far is simply poor. RED has a record that has proved delivery and action. We need action. I am tired of just wishing.
 
Peter Proniewicz-Brooks said:
Not sure the 70% discounts all that far off. In the car example, making a Ferrari for Ferrari money is often easier than making a civic for civic money, especially if your R&D and engineering departments are geared towards the Ferrari engineering end.
Click to expand...

Porsche did that once, it was called the 914. Did not go well..
 
The car this is actually a good stand in, I really did not mean it to be offensive. It's nice and cool to have a Ferrari, but Honda's are great cars. There are a lot of great options for you. 5D Mark III now have clean HDMI out, and you can go to a portable recorder for raw images. Red chose SSD because of it's speed and low fail rate. It's require to work properly but also drives up the cost. There is a lot of processing in 4k, and it's tricky to write that much data to a card. That's why Canon ships a camera that can't record 4k. I'm sure we will get there one day, but you'll have to understands that big established companies like Sony, Canon and Arri can't do what Red can for the price, it shows how difficult that task is.

AS for BM, they took a flack (as red did in the early days), I'm sure they would not have announced the 4k this time if it was not close, and if they had not sorted out their supply line. I think you'll see cameras out there by end of summer. Get on a list somewhere. It will dropping a Ferrari engine into honda body.
 
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