Advise On Choosing a RED model (R1 MX | Scarlet | Epic) And On RED Workflow

[Mike Nagel]

Hi All,

I'm looking into getting a RED camera and possibly join the group here ;-)

Currently considering a Red camera as we're looking for pristine image quality. I'm currently unsure about which model to buy. Deciding between a Red One MX, Scarlet or Epic and would prefer to save some money in the beginning and start off with a R1 MX unless there are considerable advantages of the Scarlet / Epic over the R1 MX...


Would love to get opinions from Red experienced cinematographers on some of these questions:

Are any accessories for the Red One compatible with Red Scarlet / Epic ?

How is the image quality of R1 MX in 4K 24p compared to Scarlet / Epic in 4K 24p ?

What are your experiences in shooting on Scarlet (in 4K) compared to the Epic (in 4K) ? Is the image quality on par or is the Scarlet inferior ?

What would you say is the biggest improvment of the Epic / Scarlet generation over the R1 MX ?

Would you get a Scarlet or a R1 MX (if it came down to these two models) ?


Additionally looking for advise on dealing with any of the three mentioned RED cameras (pre / on set / post). I'm fully aware that the Red workflow can be considered more difficult or lengthy as other solutions, and I would love to get a heads up on things to avoid or watch out for...

Examples:

> since the R1 MX tends to run hot, I was told some people cool the body on set, especially when shooting in the desert, or even better, have a back-up body... How would you cool the body ? Icepacks ? Are there reported cases where the R1 has overheated and did not work after it had cooled down ?

> people mentioned pink highlights - when do they occurr and how are they dealt with in post ?

> what are the "black shading nightmares" that was referred to in some posts ? Is that heavy noise in the shadows ?

> does the (infamous) fan noise of the Epic kick in while shooting, or does the fan speed up in between takes when the camera tries to cool down ?

> how do you deal with the fan noise of the Epic [besides upgrading to Dragon ;-)))] ?

> does the Scarlet have the same fan noise issues ?


... stuff like that... please post anything you would warn a newbie about !


Thanks !

- Mike

 

[Christopher Mills]

Firstly, What's your budget. If its $40-$50K.. then a well dressed Epic Package is in reach for you.
If half that..$24k then Scarlet or super well outfitted Red 1 MX with some lenses
if hallf of that $12K.. Red one with lots of accessories and some starter lens solution.

Next.. do you have clients who will help you pay that back? If not.. then maybe you should rent as needed for specific projects.


I am happy with my BT R1.. and have producing experience with the Epic, and observations on other folks use of the Scarlet.

I think the choice for me was really Epic v R1MX, as a fully dressed R1MX and a Scarlet will cost similar amounts.

The Epic is an improvement over the weight, data rate, frame rates, has HDRX useable at dialog speeds in full resolution, and is a smaller form factor.
It is a step down in I/O ports (smaller box, something had to give)

The Scarlet is merely a smaller camera with fewer frame rates at 3K+ resolutions. After much examination, I do not consider it an improvement on the R1 MX.

It is, however, available as a new product, with Red Armor available. an R1 would get a max 90 day warranty.. and hardware is EOL on that camera.

Shoot and Post wise... all three cameras are more like shooting film than shooting videotape. You must handle data carefully, and it will take more time than you think. Allocate a man day of DIT/Data management for each shooting day. This either means more media in the field, or a crew person and download station. I like this. It makes a project a less casual and more intentional event.


Red 1 4K v Epic 4K- Epic can do lower compression than the Red 1.. also than the Scarlet.

Scarlet V Epic at 4K.. if you slow down the Epic's compression to the max rare of the Scarlet, they *should* be indistinguishable

If you already have either PL or Nikon lenses, then R1.. if Canon EOS, then Scarlet/Epic may make most sense.

If you have neither... then slight lean to R1 at lower price point.. and an ALLSTAR or other mount system added to the camera.


I sometimes think to myself on set as an operator or DoP "hey, the touchscreen navigation would be great to have" or.. "can I have a higher framerate at 4K"

However, I have way more i/o options on the r1 for offboard recorders, audio interface, and client monitors

The Redmote system seems buggy

The systems don't share very many accessories.. though if you have a mattebox and follow focus system, you can likely use it with either.

Power interfaces are either R1 or DSMC.. V-mount or Gold mount batteries will power either camera.

I have never had a client offer to rent a Scarlet. only an R1 or an Epic. This is important to me, as I don't want to have the odd camera out on rental prospects.

Yeah, the Scarlet fan and Epic fan can and will be an occasional problem.

I like the simpler black shade issue on the R1. It looks to be a complete pain to have to do it so often on the DSMC system.

Have never had an r1, epic , or scarlet fail on me in Atlanta GA summers (very hot and humid here in summer).
I may just have been lucky.

Haven't had a "pink Highlight" problem.. is this from near red pollution? sounds like CA on the lenses otherwise.. not camera specific


I don't like random handheld shooting, so the extra camera weight is not an issue to me. If I did more of that style of footage, I think an Epic would be great for me.

I can shoot dialog speeds at 4.5k with my camera.. can't do that on Scarlet.

Now, do you have clients who already hire you as a DoP or producer? If you don't, then all these cameras are pretty expensive personal project tools. Perhaps renting them when you need them might serve you better?

Also.. I feel that every Scarlet I have seen has a different set of quirks.. not surprising, as they did not necessarily have all identical internal ASIC components.

 

[Paul Toth]

Much will depend upon your needs. I think in terms of image quality any of them will do you well. The Epic, of course, gives you more frame rates + 5 k motion, the Scarlet (which I have and shoot with) doesn't have as many frame rates and the 5K on it is limited to max 12 fps. I can't say about other users but I get hired based on my past reputation, quality of work and not based on my camera brand, and although I can envision a scenario where that might be problematic it hasn't been an issue for me.

The image coming from my Scarlet is outstanding. I love being able to re-frame or punch into shots and still have a wonderful looking image. And so far the fan noise has not been an issue. I set it at 35 when recording and it's pretty quiet.

As for post, I don't know why people are talking about this workflow as being complicated or whatever. Here's what I do (and this goes for all file formats regardless of what brand of camera they came from):
1. import RAW files into Premiere CS6
2. edit
3. color correct
4. audio mix
5. export

Pretty simple workflow if you ask me. The only other thing I might say is that the R1MX has ben EOL'd so you risk the future of the camera with the possibility of parts no longer being available. At the current prices I would get an Epic but totally understand the allure of the R1.

 

[Mike Nagel]

@ Christopher : thank you for the detailed reply ! much appreciated ! I probably should have clarified that the camera is being purchased to shoot a few of my personal projects this year, so at one point renting is not economical anymore... if I count the amount of shoot days (and multiply with rental prices), I can purchase the camera and own it... ;-)

could you elaborate on this ? "I like the simpler black shade issue on the R1. It looks to be a complete pain to have to do it so often on the DSMC system."

@ Paul: Happy to hear, I will be working with PP CS6, AE and Resolve...

Additionally, I think another positive of the purchase of an Epic (or Scarlet for that matter) is that it would always leave the door open for a Dragon upgrade...

 

[Christopher Mills]

RE: Blackshade. Needs to be done much less often on R1 than on Scarlet. and takes less time.

RE: Dragon... it's been announced that it will still be available for Epic, and with a given amount of Epic paid, it is included in your price. It has been announced that Scarlet bodies will not be modifiable to receive it.


All three cameras have physically sturdy structure, and have great image quality.

You can, of course depreciate the camera the first year you buy it, or across a longer term if your accountant so advises.

But... if you borrow the money to buy it, make sure you can cover the payments, even when there is no paying work for it.

 

[Mike Nagel]

thanks, Chris !

 

[Troy Bakewell]

I'm an owner of a Scarlet and I love my camera! It has far surpassed my expectations in every way.

With that being said I would recommend either a R1 or Epic unless you can find a great deal on a Scarlet. But if you can possibly swing it, get an Epic. It is a much better overall value IMO.

Just my $0.02

 

[Mike Nagel]

thanks Troy, yes I agree and it will be either a R1 MX or an Epic...

Problem is I only have the budget for ONE camera, and not for a backup body, and lots of people like to stress that RED cameras are / can be unreliable... since I don't have personal experience with any RED camera it's hard to gauge how big of an issue that is / can be .... (?)

What are your experiences ? Do you bring a backup body to your projects ?

Thanks.

- M

 

[Daniel Pearson]

thanks Troy, yes I agree and it will be either a R1 MX or an Epic...

Problem is I only have the budget for ONE camera, and not for a backup body, and lots of people like to stress that RED cameras are / can be unreliable... since I don't have personal experience with any RED camera it's hard to gauge how big of an issue that is / can be .... (?)

What are your experiences ? Do you bring a backup body to your projects ?

Thanks.

- M

There is another active thread about the reliability of the Scarlet, and an overwhelming response of people who have had nothing but great experiences with their cameras being reliable 99% of the time. I've had my Scarlet for 4 months with no issues (though I'm yet to put it through anything too grueling). I don't think reliability is that much of a concern, at least in terms of having to purchase two bodies with one as a back up.

 

[Troy Bakewell]

IMO

There's no need to bring a BU unless it's a super critical shoot. If you were buying an Alexa even, you would feel the need for a back up camera if the job was that important.

 

[Björn Benckert]

thanks Troy, yes I agree and it will be either a R1 MX or an Epic...

Problem is I only have the budget for ONE camera, and not for a backup body, and lots of people like to stress that RED cameras are / can be unreliable... since I don't have personal experience with any RED camera it's hard to gauge how big of an issue that is / can be .... (?)

What are your experiences ? Do you bring a backup body to your projects ?

Thanks.

- M

Never needed it, Our epic has been used for 1,5 year without a single issue that have halted production. I think the day your camera break down you call the rental house and if you have production insurance then that will cover it. Having two cameras are nice but then you might as well get two of everything, DP's, actors, lenses sets etc. then it gets really expansive.

 

[Christopher Mills]

I don't feel the need to have exact duplicate backups.. Once you get your camera, do test it extensively, so you are comfortable with it.
Also, network in your part of the world, so a backup body is only a phone call away.. wise to pre-negotiate that cost before your shoot, though.
Our worldwide community is pretty helpful in those situations.

 

[Rob Gardner]

We have owned two R1's and traded up to two Epics. We have never needed the backups. We have never had technical problems of any scope on any of the cameras and we have used them in extreme situations (central Africa and India). We have traveled with them extensively and they are very rugged and reliable. I'm not sure where all the reliability gossip comes from about these cameras, unless it is left over from the early pioneering days. I would set all the concerns about reliability aside and consider the other angles on the decision. I think Christopher's advice above is very good.

 

[Andrew Allsbury]

We went from Scarlet to Epic, both are great cameras, never had a single problem with either. If you can, go Epic. 5K, HDRx and high frame rates open up a lot of doors creatively. Plus I can't wait for the increased dynamic range a base ISO of 2000 from the dragon upgrade.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I have been involved with in all at least 1000 shootingdays (or more) in full-day all-kind-of conditions environments, and have not seen much unreliability that was not user-induced.
Actually, except for 1 hickup, and that was mainly due to a setup that would have caused the same problem on "any" camera.

Overheating? That is an issue that went away in 2008... But these stories hold long.

Blackshading?

Do it right, and it stays right for a looong time.

Usually do it in connection with firmware upgrades, and then that's done.

 

[BRANDON JAMESON]

Never needed it, Our epic has been used for 1,5 year without a single issue that have halted production. I think the day your camera break down you call the rental house and if you have production insurance then that will cover it. Having two cameras are nice but then you might as well get two of everything, DP's, actors, lenses sets etc. then it gets really expansive.

LOL, Bjorn!!! Youre the best!

 

[Mike Nagel]

Blackshading?

Do it right, and it stays right for a looong time.

Usually do it in connection with firmware upgrades, and then that's done.

Edit: I understand the black shading methodology now.

@ everybody else: Thanks you for sharing your experiences !


- Mike

 

[Casey Green]

Reliability of our EPICs and Scarlets have been superb. Close to two years with just a few incidents here and there. Can't think of any lost footage. I've also worked on sets with most other digital cinema cameras. All at some point have issues, as it's the nature of building a camera around a computer.

One more memorable problem actually was on an Alexa shoot for a TV series. After shooting a scene and moving on, when footage was being looked at, certain clips would not playback at DIT. When they went and tried to playback from camera, they wouldn't either. They ended up having to go back and reshoot the scene on another camera body. Not bashing Alexa, I think it's a very good camera. Just an example that, again, these are computers, with all technology, they will have issues from time to time. Just like with Film, it has it's own issues... we've just had over 100 years to improve on the technology, adhere to best practices, and develop workarounds and backup plans.

Overall, we are extremely happy with our investment.