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Advice needed: Will RED work for a thesis in October?

B

Benjamin Epps

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I am shooting a thesis project from October 10th through 17th at the American Film Institute.

I was hoping to shoot the project on the RED One. I have scheduled the shoot with my new REDvolutionary friend Vladimir Eugene (RED #87) in addition to hopefully my RED #105, if it arrives in time.

HOWEVER, the school administration just sent me an email tonight at 7PM saying that they have denied my proposal to shoot on the RED camera because essentially they don't believe the camera really works and can deliver our project on time by March 28th without major headaches.

I would like to know from the first 50 RED owners and also the RED community as a whole if this fear of camera failure has merit.

Does this camera work? Can it deliver a project that starts on October 10th? And must deliver a completed project by March 28th?

And if it does work, would some of you wise folks be willing to provide technical support in the form of advice or training for our RED shoot? (Thanks to Kosmos3D for already pitching in on this front.)

We have an amazing project and a talented, experienced team (much of the camera crew works on the TV show Scrubs). If we don't prove that our thesis can excel with a RED One, we will be relegated to the school's F900 (which is a good camera, but certainly no RED).

Feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you in advance from a humble REDvolutionary trying to launch his thesis and career in the right direction.

-Benjamin Epps
RED #105
 
Is the school footing the bill? This biz, outside the hallowed halls of education does not really take kindly to rule following so I would say f-em' and shoot on whatever the hell you want.

Then again, if they have an f900 and the infrastructure to post it for free I would consider using the sony.
 
School pitches in $11,000, but that money comes right out of our tuition funds which is $40,000 (I know. It's crazy. I have loans up to my ears.) And there are 6 students on my team so our combined tuition is $240,000, which makes the $11,000 kickback somewhat small in comparison.

The rest of the budget we have to beg for from friends and family. And there is a lot of that "rest of budget" to raise, so a lot of begging is required.
 
We shot about an hours worth of footage on Mon. & Tues. and I am cutting the music video right now in 1080 Pro Res HQ. Red alert is not as fast a solution as we should have in October with FCS2 but given that it only took me about 5 hours to convert every last shot on a 15" Macbook Pro, I really don't see it as an issue. Shoot RED, screw the powers that be. BTW I live right down the street from AFI so if you need me to come up and kick some ass with some demo footy drop me a PM.
 
Shoot with both cameras, with F900 side by side, so you don't break the administration rule - you'll be having a backup with the Red camera (using the terms and positions of the AFI administration). Since both cameras use only storage, no film/money will be wasted (except for the additional workforce).
Then edit and finish Red footage and if needed use cutlist to finish F900 footage, then show both versions to your professors and then laugh at them.
A bit overhead, I know, but then it's not easy to accept new trends for some people.
 
Hello Benjamin,

First off I have to say that I have seen some absolutely incredible projects come out of AFI. In my opinion, it is so much better than any other film school as to make comparisons meaningless so, despite the high tuition, I think your money is well spent (it should be pointed out that AFI is run like a conservatory, not a straight school). I know of an AFI fellow who's short thesis project is now funded for development into a major feature and he is attached as writer/director.

Keep in mind that their reasoning is probably not a dislike nor distrust of RED, rather it is about how it fits into their established workflow. They have multiple disciplines being taught and post is one of them, so without a clear and tested finishing path, they might be a bit reluctant.

The side-by-side idea is interesting, but likely wholly impractical in a lot of shooting situations (steadicam and many others). Sequential shooting (one take on one camera followed by another take on the other) might work out, but it would certainly reduce the page coverage you could expect by a pretty big factor.

In the end, I would say shoot on film if you can (S16) if not then on the F900 and concentrate on getting a great project, the fact that you aren't shooting on RED won't hurt you really. What you want it a project that looks good and highlights your abilities as an upcoming director and hopefully the quality of the story and how it is told will get you some notice.

Then, on your own time, develope your skills on the RED and impress the hell out of everyone with what you were able to accomplish with your own resources.

Best of luck to you and your project,

Kevin Halverson
 
Thanks for the advice so far.

I love the energy and support that forms around the camera here on the boards. Hopefully some more users can chime in on whether on not they think the RED is currently a viable option for a rigid, intense production schedule. If only Soderbergh used these boards...
 
Due to the revised schedule and some issues Red are working out with suppliers, it might be best to shoot with the 900 for now. You will hopefully have many more projects to use the Red with in the future. I was working on a project shot with two 900s recently and the footage looks great and it adds a lot of quality to the production. You can certainly tell a story with it. I would focus on your directing skills, and know that there is enough technical competency with the 900 to support your storytelling.

When youreceive your Red camera, learn the ins and outs of it and then shoot your next feature, doc, music video, etc with it. Knowing the camera will help you to get the best out of it on your next project. To get the camera in October and be shooting with it right away without spending any time doing tests would be a mistake.

Just my opinion.

Steve
 
Dukemovie said:
the school administration... denied my proposal to shoot on the RED camera because essentially they don't believe the camera really works and can deliver our project on time by March 28th without major headaches.
Click to expand...

Hi Benjamin,

I'm not sure if it would help, but perhaps if you could convince one of the schools administration to come to the RedOne training- Los Angeles workshop- they could see how easy it is to capture, take it to post, and screen

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4549
 
Shoot 900

Shoot 900

Shoot with the F900. RED, though obviously not vaporware, is still in the experimental stages. With any new equipment, there is a learning curve. It will take months for DPs and editors to figure out the best settings and workflow both in principal photography and in post. AFI is looking after your and their best interests. What if bugs popped up in the middle of your shoot? What if your DP shoots with non-optimal settings and you don't realize this until post? Don't risk your education and career on untested equipment. You'll need time to experiment with RED before being comfortable tackling a real project with it. Directing a project already has too many issues that'll occupy your mind. You don't need to add to that.
 
From my experience with professors I have not seen argueing with their decisions when they decide your grades is not the best strategy (Many academics I have met don't take to kindly to bieng told they are wrong). I agree with you that the red would be better but some fights are not worth it and I think this would be one to walk away from.
 
Menchifus said:
Shoot with the F900. RED, though obviously not vaporware, is still in the experimental stages. With any new equipment, there is a learning curve. It will take months for DPs and editors to figure out the best settings and workflow both in principal photography and in post.
Click to expand...

I agree with you about bugs potentially popping up in the early stages.. however, i disagree with the camera having months of a learning curve.
the post workflow is a breeze and should be no problem to figure out with minimum amount of time.
 
Benjamin,
It would go to the Ask David Mullen anything thread. I would then post the question there. And ask if a letter of recemendation would be in order.
I would also look up all your fellow red owners in LA who allready have there camera and see what can of sapport you can get.
just my 2 cents.
yaque
 
A letter from David Mullen, if he thinks it prudent and if he is willing. And thinks that the work flow etc will meet AFI standard could be very convincing.
At the very least he may have insight into the question to shoot red or not to shoot Red. (For this particular project) we all know the long term answer to this.
yaque
 
Very good call Yague!

I´d do that Benjamin - good luck!
 
Another thing you might try is collecting all their concerns. Write them down in priority (just doing this with them will challenge both parties to come face to face with the details) and then address each item on the check list. Film makers by tradition take chances, that is the spirit that keeps pushing the boundaries.

On the other hand, professors want you to succeed. They want you to produce a story that the audience can relate to and be moved by. Mastering the toys of the trade are a far second, unless your there for cinematography only, but if your there to be a storyteller then never let our wonderful toys get in the way of the story, everthing serves the story, that includes everyone and everything.
 
I am having almost the SAME exact problem, Dukemovie, with my graduate school Dept head. Where is the faith? Why does everyone already have an opinion on Red? I'm shooting in March (my Red is delivered in Feb) so I have a little more wiggle room, but still they're trying to talk me out of it.

I agree with Finner too so I'm torn--Some fights aren't worth it...even when they're wrong and youre 34 and know (reasonably) what youre doing. Ultimately, I am just there to get the degree so I can teach graduate school while making films in the 4 months off a year... If your goal is to just make movies, shoot Red. I think this community will support you with backup cameras if you run into any problems bc now is such a crucial time in the revolution.
 
The Oct 10th RED cameras are now delayed... in fact all cameras now 2 weeks later to the end of the month say Jim (search posts)... so you might want to use the Sony. Goodluck. I'd work on the script, rehearsals and story boards... more than worry about the camera now. Sony will be just fine... get great performances and no one will say anything.

"I am now changed the schedule. Starting from October, every date that was the 10th has now become "by the end of the month". We need this extra time to get several things right. I do not want to disappoint anyone, but I would rather delay shipping than to push cameras out the door when we can improve them. We need the time." - Jim
- http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4624
 
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