Advice needed - Best interim cam

[kevinfluet]

Hey Jason,

I am also looking for a new cam while we all wait for Scarlet in (hopefully early) 2010.

I have come to the conclusion that Scarlet won't be the general purpose camera some think it will be. I think for some things (especially long recordings and RNG), you will prefer to pick your EX1 or AG-HMC150 or GM-HM100 even when your Scarlet is beside it on your shelf.

I am thinking maybe a camera that is Scarlet's opposite would be good to have around. The JVC might be a good fit, with it's CCD (no jello) sensors, fast workflow, compact size (esp without the mic), dual SDHC slots (3+ hours with a couple 32GB cards).

On the other hand, I am underwhelmed by all the sample JVC footage I have seen, especially in low light. The HMC150 sure delivers some damn nice footage as long as you are finishing at 720p or smaller.

-- Kevin

 

[Stefan Christou]

I didn't realise they were fully native. There was previously a re-warp needed. Thanks :thumbsup:

 

[Stefan Christou]

Thanks Michael!

That looks really good too, but it looks to have no audio input which I would definitely need. My only reservation about the DSLR's is the H.264 format and whether that will negate the time savings of shooting tapeless - if you have to transcode your footage to edit in FCP, it looks like that would take longer than ingesting tape on an hour-for-hour basis...

I'm pretty sure h.264 is just a re-wrap, or native in either FCP or Avid MC, depending on the extension.

 

[Jason Badham]

Hey Jason,

I am also looking for a new cam while we all wait for Scarlet in (hopefully early) 2010.

I have come to the conclusion that Scarlet won't be the general purpose camera some think it will be. I think for some things (especially long recordings and RNG), you will prefer to pick your EX1 or AG-HMC150 or GM-HM100 even when your Scarlet is beside it on your shelf.

I am thinking maybe a camera that is Scarlet's opposite would be good to have around. The JVC might be a good fit, with it's CCD (no jello) sensors, fast workflow, compact size (esp without the mic), dual SDHC slots (3+ hours with a couple 32GB cards).

On the other hand, I am underwhelmed by all the sample JVC footage I have seen, especially in low light. The HMC150 sure delivers some damn nice footage as long as you are finishing at 720p or smaller.

-- Kevin

Thanks Kevin,

I think you are absolutely right. I sat down and actually thought about the 5D and it really had the same "limitations" that Scarlet will have (I say limitations when they are really just adjustments to my current production workflow). The 12 min record time will be similar on Scarlet although there may be some kind of continuos recording module and the post production workflow will be fairly aggressive given the huge files I'll be dealing with. I really only have 1 annual event that I think would be impossible to use either the Scarlet or the 5D with - everything else I think would benefit from the bigger sensor and overall improvement in visual quality.

Having the right equipment for the right job is the best advice. I don't do weddings or anything that really requires long continuous sequences - so I think that by adapting my production workflow to be more efficient, the 5D would probably be a good interim device and I would be able to make use of my existing lenses. I think though that I will wait until after Snow Leopard comes out to see if editing the H.264 files from the camera is actually feasible in FCP without having to transcode.

As for the JVC, I was looking around for footage and found myself underwhelmed as well. I haven't used a 1/4" chip camera in years and with only a 10x zoom I'm not sure that you could even achieve any kind of respectable DOF. I have an old Letus adapter but do not want to go that route anymore - it's too much hassle for the few closeup scenes I would really want the shallow DOF in anyway. I'm thinking the Panny might be good and it's roughly the same price as the JVC.

 

[Jason Badham]

I'm pretty sure h.264 is just a re-wrap, or native in either FCP or Avid MC, depending on the extension.

Thanks Stefan! From everything I was reading it looked like FCP can "handle" the H.264 files, but that editing them is a real pain right now. I would love to talk to someone who actually does edit these files and hear for myself though...

 

[Michael Hastings]

Thanks Michael!

That looks really good too, but it looks to have no audio input which I would definitely need. My only reservation about the DSLR's is the H.264 format and whether that will negate the time savings of shooting tapeless - if you have to transcode your footage to edit in FCP, it looks like that would take longer than ingesting tape on an hour-for-hour basis...

You are right on the audio input, I forgot that. Since I have a REDONE I bought mine as a still camera plus simple but high quality video camera. But I think they limited the audio so people would still have a reason to get a 5d.

 

[Stefan Christou]

Thanks Stefan! From everything I was reading it looked like FCP can "handle" the H.264 files, but that editing them is a real pain right now. I would love to talk to someone who actually does edit these files and hear for myself though...

Mee too. You could output some H.264 from compressor and try editing it. I think I might do the same. I think the biggest problem with H.264 is how it will react to grading, you'd need to get your look absolutely right in camera.

 

[Bryce O]

Hey Bryce,

I have a couple of questions for you about the 5D.

First, do you think it would be a workable cam to shoot instructional videos? I have a fairly long project I am working on now that is mainly scheduled for DVD distribution. Each video is about 30-50 minutes and each shoot is about 2-3 days. Since it's primarily one instructor, I really only need 1 audio input at a time. Would the 12 min clip length kill me in post? Is editing this footage a pain in FCS?

The reason I am kind of slanting this way, is that I was recently planning on upgrading my current still camera, and I already have 5 canon lenses that I really like... It looks very tempting.

Any advice on this is really appreciated.. thanks!

It's hard to say. I do primarily narrative work and rarely have a take over 30 seconds, let alone 12 mins. I also shoot dual system audio, so I have no idea how to work with the audio on the 5d besides just using the on board mic for a scratch track to sync with. DVinfo has real good info on working with 5D audio if you go that route.

Editing has never been a problem. I'm using a 2.66 dual macbook pro right now (quad tower soon, hopefully). Just convert to proress and it'll work fine. Grading in Color looks great with this method too.

Something like an xh-a1 or hvx might still be better for interviews and instructional videos though. On the other hand, you said you already have a Canon lens collection, which is a huge plus.

BTW, Don't buy or use Nikons on the 5D. Even if they're fast... they're still made for aps-c sized sensors and vignette on the 5D since it's full frame.

 

[Jason Badham]

Mee too. You could output some H.264 from compressor and try editing it. I think I might do the same. I think the biggest problem with H.264 is how it will react to grading, you'd need to get your look absolutely right in camera.

Got it... so transcoding is a must to grade then, I didn't think about that... Thanks!

 

[Jason Badham]

It's hard to say. I do primarily narrative work and rarely have a take over 30 seconds, let alone 12 mins. I also shoot dual system audio, so I have no idea how to work with the audio on the 5d besides just using the on board mic for a scratch track to sync with. DVinfo has real good info on working with 5D audio if you go that route.

Editing has never been a problem. I'm using a 2.66 dual macbook pro right now (quad tower soon, hopefully). Just convert to proress and it'll work fine. Grading in Color looks great with this method too.

Something like an xh-a1 or hvx might still be better for interviews and instructional videos though. On the other hand, you said you already have a Canon lens collection, which is a huge plus.

BTW, Don't buy or use Nikons on the 5D. Even if they're fast... they're still made for aps-c sized sensors and vignette on the 5D since it's full frame.

Thanks Bryce, I appreciate the feedback. I starting to wonder if I'll need to have two cameras even with Scarlet. Lots to consider (and lots of money to start making in order to afford all of this)... thanks again for the help!

 

[Rick Presas]

As for the JVC, I was looking around for footage and found myself underwhelmed as well.

Exactly why i don't reccomend it. Quick workflow is good and well, but to me there is no greater determiner than picture quality.

I've edited SEVERAL short films shot with a Panasonic HVX (DVCPRO-HD) and, while render times DO exist, they dont come near rivaling how long it takes to capture tapes from my Canon XHA1 (which has a very grey hue to its pictures)

HPX and HMC both have superior/comparable picture quality to the HVX.

..There's a very good reason the DVX/HVX/HPX/HMC family is so darn popular in the independent film world.

 

[Jacek Zakowicz]

wait till September

wait till September

If you are looking at DSLR you should wait. I had a conversation with a Canon rep during the DGA meet last weekend. He advised me to sell my T1i before the second week of September. Apparently there will be a new one coming out with 24p and , possibly, RAW video out from Canon. Priced around $1500. S35 sensor and Eos mount for use with all Canon glass.
Should get interesting.

 

[Jason Badham]

Exactly why i don't reccomend it. Quick workflow is good and well, but to me there is no greater determiner than picture quality.

I've edited SEVERAL short films shot with a Panasonic HVX (DVCPRO-HD) and, while render times DO exist, they dont come near rivaling how long it takes to capture tapes from my Canon XHA1 (which has a very grey hue to its pictures)

HPX and HMC both have superior/comparable picture quality to the HVX.

..There's a very good reason the DVX/HVX/HPX/HMC family is so darn popular in the independent film world.

Thanks Rick,

The 150 was what I was eying when I started this thread since it's a logical next step from my current DVX - I was just concerned about the 24mbs files.. but if the footage looks good, then that's all that really matters...

 

[Rick Presas]

The 150 was what I was eying when I started this thread since it's a logical next step from my current DVX - I was just concerned about the 24mbs files.. but if the footage looks good, then that's all that really matters...

The HMC footage is very comparable to an HVX, and I've seen my HVX fotage up on a few movie theater screens (film festivals and such), and it looks good DEFINETLY very useable for any normal type of delivery you need to cover.

Be on notice, unlike the HVX and HPX, the HMC does NOT have undercranking and overcranking


Hmmm

looks like Panny is releasing a new member of that HVX derivative family...this one looks really interesting for the price point alone! weighing less than 2.2lbs wtf.
http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-Pro...S9PE/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1249654869&sr=8-3

The HD camcorder records in all four professional AVCCAM recording modes, including the high-quality PH mode (average 21 Mbps/Max 24Mbps), the HA mode (approx.17 Mbps), the HG mode (approx.13 Mbps) and the extended recording HE mode (approx. 6 Mbps). It supports 1080/59.94i (in all modes) and 1080/29.97p, 1080/23.98p native, 720/59.94p, 720/20.97p, and 720/23.98p native (in PH mode only).

Using just one 32GB SDHC memory card, a user can record three hours of full resolution 1920x1080 video and audio in PH mode, four hours at HA mode and 5.3 hours at HG mode. In the HE mode, the camera can record up to 12 hours of 1440x1080 HD content – all on a single 32GB SDHC card.

The HMC40 comes standard with HDMI output, USB 2.0 (mini B-type devices), composite output (AV multi/ch1, ch2), analog component (mini-D), detachable XLR audio input and audio REC level adjustment dials. Users also have the choice of expanding the camera’s audio capability with 2-channel input, mic/line switchable and +48V options that are available for purchase separately. The camera’s 2.7-inch LCD monitor offers simple touch-panel operation and access to various solid-state recording functions such as pre-record, interval recording, shot marker and metadata capture.

In addition, this lightweight handheld offers invaluable professional features including waveform monitor display, focus assists such as focus bar display and enlarged display, time date stamp, user assignable focus ring, auto focus with face detection, zebra display, synchro-scan shutter function, three programmable user buttons, time code/UB recording, remote control terminal (for zoom, focus, aperture, REC start/stop controls).

 

[Jason Badham]

The HMC footage is very comparable to an HVX, and I've seen my HVX fotage up on a few movie theater screens (film festivals and such), and it looks good DEFINETLY very useable for any normal type of delivery you need to cover.

Be on notice, unlike the HVX and HPX, the HMC does NOT have undercranking and overcranking


Hmmm

looks like Panny is releasing a new member of that HVX derivative family...this one looks really interesting for the price point alone! weighing less than 2.2lbs wtf.
http://www.amazon.com/Panasonic-Pro...S9PE/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1249654869&sr=8-3

That is great to hear about the footage - thanks Rick!

The HMC40 looks awesome - especially for the price, but I think the 150 would be the best fit for me given the 1/3" chips (that little extra DOF is worth the $1500 IMO).

As for editing, even with FCP7 - you still need to transcode so you can grade in Color is that correct? And for anyone that has done this, is the transcoding process reasonably quick? I read someone make the comment that it was roughly the same time as transferring the files off of the card...

 

[Jaime Vallés]

If you are looking at DSLR you should wait. I had a conversation with a Canon rep during the DGA meet last weekend. He advised me to sell my T1i before the second week of September. Apparently there will be a new one coming out with 24p and , possibly, RAW video out from Canon. Priced around $1500. S35 sensor and Eos mount for use with all Canon glass.
Should get interesting.

Fascinating! Can't wait to see what they've got up their sleeves.

 

[Rick Presas]

Fascinating! Can't wait to see what they've got up their sleeves.

+1

especially if its in RAW

 

[Bryce O]

If you are looking at DSLR you should wait. I had a conversation with a Canon rep during the DGA meet last weekend. He advised me to sell my T1i before the second week of September. Apparently there will be a new one coming out with 24p and , possibly, RAW video out from Canon. Priced around $1500. S35 sensor and Eos mount for use with all Canon glass.
Should get interesting.

I really hope this is true... I'd buy 4 of them right away without thinking twice. :thumbup:

I never understood why raw video is so difficult to include on something like a DSLR. It seems like it would be even easier on the processor, because it's just wrtiting the bayer data and not actually interpreting or compressing it. Maybe it's a data-storage issue?

As for editing, even with FCP7 - you still need to transcode so you can grade in Color is that correct? And for anyone that has done this, is the transcoding process reasonably quick? I read someone make the comment that it was roughly the same time as transferring the files off of the card...

You're pretty much going to want to trans code everything you shoot. Rarely do cameras shoot in a format that can stand up to grading and heavy editing by themselves. Transcode times all depend on you're machine. 5D footage going to prores seems to take around 5minutes for 30seconds on a macbook pro.

 

[Jason Badham]

I really hope this is true... I'd buy 4 of them right away without thinking twice. :thumbup:

I never understood why raw video is so difficult to include on something like a DSLR. It seems like it would be even easier on the processor, because it's just wrtiting the bayer data and not actually interpreting or compressing it. Maybe it's a data-storage issue?



You're pretty much going to want to trans code everything you shoot. Rarely do cameras shoot in a format that can stand up to grading and heavy editing by themselves. Transcode times all depend on you're machine. 5D footage going to prores seems to take around 5minutes for 30seconds on a macbook pro.

Is the 5:30 for a 12min clip or shorter? I have been searching to see if I can find a place to download a large file to test transcode and can't seem to find anything longer than a couple of seconds. I downloaded a 12 sec clip from dpreview.com and it took my '07 2.66 Quad MacPro (w/ 11gb RAM) 24 seconds to transcode to ProRes 422HQ (so maybe 24 minutes to transcode a 12 min clip?). I am going to upgrade the graphics card on it soon (to an ATI 3870) and maybe when Snow Leopard comes out that all may speed up.

I am really torn between getting the 5d and renting an 150 or better for the projects I really need that kind of camera for, or going for the 150 and getting less aesthetic quality (like DOF, low light response etc.).

If canon does come out with their version of Scarlet I am curious how it will compete directly with their video division... They seem to have avoided the total crossover camera so far. Maybe that's why RED has been so quiet about Scarlet, Epic and.... well everything but the RR...

 

[Luis Filipe Cunha]

"h 24p and , possibly, RAW video out from Canon. (...) S35 sensor and Eos mount for use with all Canon glass."
This sensor is smaller than a Full Frame DSLR sensor?