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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Advice for someone who has picked a Scarlet over film school

Hey,
Self taught filmmaker and cinematographer here. Self taught meaning no real film degree not that I taught everything I know to my self with out learning from others. I have been on many sets and have been teaching video production for many years now. My first real filmmaking book was the same one as you. Great choice. I think you are doing the right thing. One thing I also did was to go to the Community College for two years to learn a bit more about many different things. I like Psy classes and I believe they helped me as a filmmaker. You can learn alot on line. I even produced basic videos to help people. Youtube can teach you a lot. Linda.com like someone posed up top is also a great resource. Books that you might read in school will still do good by you outside of school. As you all ready said just getting out their and shooting is the best school you can get. 7d or Red anyway you can. Having a red might get you onto sets you might not be able to get on which can be a great learning experience for you if you sign on as a camera assit or tech or dit or something in till you feel like you are ready for more. I think you are on the right path. If you ever have any questions let me know..

PS. Your doing some crazy hard work and it will be a new world for you to come out to the light.
 
The education system operates differently here in Australia than US or Europe for film & TV production. The industry here is small, we don't have big studios, most people start in TV then gravitate out from there. Having said that I totally agree about the artistic elements, myself I went to a fine art college glad I did. As stated earlier just because you spend 4 years learning & gaining a degree will not get you a job. We literally have 100,s of graduates a year coming out of these film schools looking for employment that simply isn't there. It has been my experience that the young workers gaining work in the business are being more entrepreneurial , doing it through more informal routes much as Jim Hare suggested .

At the end of the day we are a nation of just 22 million without the critical mass of a huge population base to support a multitude of production as seen in other countries. So it is only natural that gaining work & experience in this challenging enviroment differs from other nations.
 
There will never ever be an answer to questions like these.

What would you rather do? Film school or own a camera? Do you know what to do with the camera, do you have connections and people that would want to use the camera.

If you are a filmmaker, do you have scripts/ideas/actors?

There is so much more than "owning a camera or film school"

Those are just tiny pieces that make up everything else.
 
After reading many of the post here, I just wanted to add my .02 cents. I’m assuming that you’re a young man, relatively speaking. So you’re bound to change your mind a few times as you navigate life. That’s OK; we’ve all done that more than once. The best way to learn filmmaking, not necessarily in this order, but nonetheless the best way is to; Watch a lot of films, make a film, read books, go to Film School, work on other peoples projects, write a Script. I’ve done them all, and never really had a plan, and yes, I did go from one situation to another. However one “lucky” thing that I did was buy an Éclair ACL in 1976, with an Agenuiex Zoom Lens, a Spectra Light Meter, and four magazines, it was the best move I ever made. I was able to experiment, speculate, and start my own business. That camera got me into all sorts of interesting situations. I travelled all over the World, and now live in Costa Rica. Good Luck, and may you change your mind more than once. So get a copy of “The Name Above The Title” start with that.

Humberto Rivera
 
I am not a RED user. But I do have some random thoughts which may or may not be of worth.

Stuart Wilde, the 'urban mystic' said that "life was not meant to be a struggle". Those who did struggle through life probably want you to struggle, too.

There are two things which I know for sure: there's nothing wrong with film school but it isn't necessary. One of my best friends went to VCA when it was still part of Swinburne. I know that I won't be going to film school, whether I want to make films or not (my love is for documentaries BTW).

If you wanted to learn still photography I'd recommend that you stay as far away from school altogether. Film school, though, isn't what I'd call a waste of time.

Steven Spielberg, James Cameron and David Lynch did not go to film school. George Lucas did. All of them are great (but sometimes they aren't...). The moral is obvious.

Whatever you do, don't buy the "things are different now" spiel. They aren't.

What might help you is a good script (or at least story outline). Have you ever written one? I haven't but the process looks to be both exciting and intimidating at the same time.

It helps to be multi-skilled. Can you compose music? Write software? Do you know at least one other language?

Your first films don't need to be 4K. But I do agree with you that H.264 cameras are not acceptable. I do believe that the next generation of video DSLRs will have uncompressed HDMI output. The Nikon D800 will apparently have this feature. It's going to be a $4,000 camera, though.

How about a GH2? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panasonic_Lumix_DMC-GH2

Can you make a decent short film with an iPhone 4S? I think I could, provided that the script wasn't asking too much.

As for lenses: okay, if you're getting a Scarlet, the Tokina 11-16/2.8 is amazing considering its price. And the Tokina 17-35/4 is also supposed to be amazing, so maybe get that and a 50-150. Just IMHO.

Have you done any research to see how much a year's worth of 16mm would cost? I have no idea but please let me know if you find out. There are no discounts for processing but I'm sure you could get discounted film. For out-dated film, use colour charts and correct for 'off' colour casts in post. How do you think Lucas fixed the Star Wars negatives?

Do you have any footage that you have shot that we can look at? I'm only curious, I'm not here to be a critic.

Thank you Humberto for your two recommendations. I'll follow up on them eventually.
 
There is no one path to a successful career in filmmaking. I've seen film school grads who have done nothing with that degree and I have seen others who were unable to go to college have success. There are a couple of young people on this forum who have had success without college degrees, one of whom I helped land a gig on a 3 camera Epic shoot. Ultimately, it comes down to the person and how driven they are. I went to film school and don't regret it. The first job I had in the industry was because of a connection made at film school. There's a lot to be said about a curriculum that covers a wide range of subjects from the arts to business to hands on production, etc. As a filmmaker, the sum of your life experience shapes your vision, so having a well-rounded education can certainly make your vision more expansive.

Jarvis, my advice to you is this. If you decide to skip a college education, you will need to work equally as hard to do the following:
- Network. You'll need to get out there and meet people in the film industry. People skills is essential. Surrounding yourself with creative and technically savvy people will make you better.
- Go to museums, read lots of books, and of course watch lots of films. Immerse yourself in this stuff.
- If you get a Scarlet, promise yourself that it will never sit on the shelf for extended periods of time. Be disciplined about shooting often. Constantly create. Whether it's a single shot or a short film, always practice and find your creative eye.
- Never let anyone else define who you are, you need to be the one who decides if your successful or a failure at the path you choose.
- Plan on continuing the learning process every day for the rest of your life. It never stops, nor should it. There are always new things to learn, new ways to challenge yourself. I've been working in the industry for 16 years and I am still studying and learning every day.

I wish you great success, whichever path you take.
 
College was the best time of my life. I made so many friends and learned a lot about film/video. I don't think I would have purchased the camera over my education. I can always rent what I need until I can afford it. But I would have never been able to gain the knowledge by myself that I did in school. But....to each his own. I wish you the best of luck! You def. know you've invested in a good piece of equipment. Just remember that that is all it is. It's nothing without determination, vision and a want to better yourself every day in your craft.
 
Being in a similar boat and making a similar decision, my logic is that the scarlet is an asset that can be leveraged. I bought it with hard earned cash and plan to use it on my own projects, rent it to friends, and offer free rentals to DP's and directors to shadow on productions. You can't really do that with a 7d. I feel a lot safer with a scarlet than taking out a loan graduate school. Camera or Degree, you'll have to work hard, but a degree on a shelf is far more dangerous than a camera. Going to graduate school in film is or any other field does not guarantee you a job, it only guarantees that you will be knowledgable. Buying a camera doesn't mean you will know how to use it but at least you can always sell your camera and get back most of your investment. You can't even default on a school loan, its for life. I don't see going to school as any less of a risk then buying a scarlet, especially in 2011 when a bachelors is basically a high school diploma.

And I know there are some people who are like just get working on a film set. Experience is necessary, but at the same time I'll just say that hollywood doesn't only typecast actors.

Best of Luck
 
I have to restate what was said above. A camera and editor is just a small part of this puzzle. You also need lights, tripods, grip equipment if you really want to "own" your entire package. I've spent the last 10 years acquiring my gear. If I had to buy it all now in one swoop it would be well over $75k. A cheaper camera with a ton of accessories will make better images than a RED and nothing else. That in mind, start small, make money, grow as you go.

It's like getting a Lamborghini for your 16th birthday. Everyone's first car should be a piece of shit.
 
I believe education is first than tools. The best camera in the world doesn't make the greatest cinematographer.
You still have to learn the theory no matter what. But it can be done if you have a lot of self-discipline. I went to Brooks Institute of Photography, and as soon I got out of school I realized that I understood light more than lots of people that had been in the industry for years. But what I didn't have: experience, I didn't even know how to make an invoice, how to deal with clients, or to promote myself. But all that came fast. What it really matter, with my big or small success was my technical skills.
I have seen many times people expecting a sudden change in their lives only because they got the best camera in the market, but the reality is other, you got have the skills and the knowledge to use those tools. My 2 cents.
 
You might not learn what you need to in film school but that doesn't mean it's something you don't need to learn. If I could "do it all over again" I would have gotten a degree in something absolutely impractical like Philosophy, and I say that as someone who I think has a bachelors in sculpting (long story, but I never bothered picking up my diploma after graduation).

Since graduating I've had a grand total of 0 people ask to see my degree. Nobody cares whether you went to school. When I was in school I was asked by a company how much they would have to offer to convince me to drop out, that's the grand total of my degree coming up in employment discussions. But that's not to say that you don't need to know that stuff... it just means you don't have to learn it in a classroom. You can absolutely make a perfectly respectable living as a craftsman in the film industry and earn an above average salary working on pretty cool stuff. But like M Most said, you'll be limited. Which is fine, because even if you do aspire to be a DP or Director... you probably won't be, at least not like how most of us aspire to. There are a lot of people who want to get there and not very many spots. And there is a huge element of luck and there is a huge element of talent and there is a huge element of hard work to most of those who do make it. But in all likelihood "understanding how human beings communicate" isn't really necessary for a 1st AC, so if you are buying your camera to become a craftsman then that's a great gig. If you aspire to be more then it doesn't matter what anybody encourages you to do or whether or not you go to college... because you're going to thirst to learn all of the important things anyway. I saw a ton of people go through film school who didn't give a shit about the critical aspects of direction whether that be actors or visuals... they just wanted to be in charge. If art, art history, philosophy and all of that peripheral stuff about how people have expressed themselves through history doesn't interest you, it doesn't matter if you go to college or not you'll probably learn just as much either way. You definitely won't learn it in most film schools.

4 years is a really really really short period of time. What matters are the habits you develop and the tools to continue learning after graduation, because that's 95% of your life.
 
If you don't go to school, find a way to get your work critiqued. Now I know there are a lot of people who are telling you to follow your own 'vision' bit I'd tell you that having to defend your work, or being challenged for what is not working is one of the most important parts of learning to be a creative artist. This is the most valuable thing that school provides. But it can also be one of the most destructive, so choose your mentors carefully.
 
Why is this always an either or decision, treated as mutually exclusive? Why not do both to some degree and get the best of both worlds?
 
In my humble opinion, education always comes first.

The tools can always be rented, acquired, borrowed. The tools do not make the work. You do.

There are people that will be successful without any formal education, and for each of them, there will always be many many more that will fare better because of their education (at least salary wise). Its a fact that you can google.

In the end you are what you know, not what you own, and owning a camera will not all of the sudden make you a filmmaker.

If the original poster already made the decision to buy a camera, I would argue that it is never too late to go to school, even if just for short term programs, workshops, etc.
 
Jarvis Alston said:
Also I have a question regarding lenses, can a zoom lens be used as a 24mm, 50mm, 80mm etc. if its covered in the total span of the zoom itself? Could I spend my money on a really good quality zoom lens instead of buying 3 or 4 prime lenses? And what is the starting range for cinema lenses? Will a Scarlet still produce the same insane pictures with a lens that only costs a few hundred dollars? Or will it be like serving caviar with pepsi? If so, will the difference be really noticeable to people who are not familiar with lens choices and quality etc? Because to me right now, an image either looks amazing or it looks kind of bland.
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Sure you can treat a zoom like a variable prime. IMO that is the best way to utilize them in motion pictures, as I am a bit snobbish about using a dolly instead of a zoom. I think L series glass is a great place to cut your teeth, but you can't get them for a few hundred. A 24-70 2.8L and a 70-200 2.8L IS will cost you a couple thousand used.

The blandness you are speaking of is more likely related to a lack of design in lighting, set, costume and composition than any characteristic inherent in the lens. Certainly some lenses can yield more saturation than others, but saturation does not equal richness... Not really.
 
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M Most said:
Also start from the place of "there have been many masters of the various artistic fields throughout history and all of them created works which provide inspiration for artists that have followed." If you don't want to study art, music, literature, and other artistic fields in a structured educational environment, that's up to you. But don't make the mistake of feeling you don't have to know anything about such things, because every director you ever want to work with will assume that you not only know about them, but have a pretty deep familiarity with their works, which will very often be used as artistic references.

Knowing how to operate the equipment and being good at it makes you a good equipment operator. It's having a point of view, understanding the classic principles of artistic expression, and being able to emotionally relate to characters and story that make you a filmmaker. That doesn't come from camera ownership, and it doesn't come from technical expertise. It comes from a much deeper understanding of human communication. I know that sounds like classical old-school bullshit to someone just starting out, but hopefully at some point you'll realize just how true it is.
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This is the single greatest piece of advice on reduser. Ever. Sticky it.

Easily lost on a technical forum about gear.
 
There are many paths and every path is the right one

There are many paths and every path is the right one

For inspiration, see the extras of Miller's Crossing, "Shooting Miller's Crossing: A Conversation with Barry Sonnenfeld"
 
Not everyone wants or needs to be a DP. The camera will get you good rates as a rental, as a DIT, as an AC, as positions you can probably handle if you read enough on this site, or take a Reducation Remote course located near you. You could even go learn the camera at a rental house for free. I think people advising you to get a DSLR are dead wrong, you can't make a good day rate with a DSLR. Sure you can learn on it, but its going to be hard to make a return on the investment and they are so simple its not the same as handling a pro camera like a Red. If money isn't an issue why not have a professional camera that can get a decent day rate? I wish I had bought a Red instead of being in debt for a degree. So getting the camera is a wise move in my opinion, there are plenty of jobs out there if you own decent gear, but DSLR's have saturated the HD market and its near impossible to make a return on them quickly. Its not the same as owning an expensive camera that relatively few people have in your area. Many people will disagree with this and say a formal education is required to know the arts, but seriously how much art does a focus puller need? How much art do you need to copy paste r3d files and transode them to prores or some other codec? There are positions out there as a non DP that really don't require film school to do. You could rent the camera to a production and be a PA or a craft service guy and not need to know much about the arts of being a DP realistically
 
Karim D. Ghantous said:
Steven Spielberg, James Cameron and David Lynch did not go to film school. George Lucas did.
Click to expand...

"Film school" is not the issue. Education, especially in the arts, is. All of the people you just mentioned are either highly educated, highly motivated, deeply steeped in the arts, or all of the above. Spielberg went to Long Beach State because he couldn't get into USC, but got an education none the less. Lynch was part of the first AFI program, along with some other guys you might have heard of named Paul Schrader, Terrence Malick, Carrol Ballard, and Caleb Deschanel. James Cameron is an anomaly, a once-or-twice-in-a-generation savant who worked his way into the industry through his incredibly varied innate talents for illustration and design, and his affinity for innovation, which is what led him to the camera department and visual effects way back when he worked for Roger Corman. But I gurarantee that if you sit down with Cameron (I haven't, but I know and work with many people who have) you'll find one of the most well read, well educated artists you'll ever meet.

My point is that none of what I or others mentioned here is about "getting a job." It's about becoming a mature artist, which all of your examples are. And they didn't get there by considering education to be worthless, ignoring the lessons of the masters, or buying a camera.
 
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