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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

Adobe need to think seriously about Grading in AE CS6

Tim Hole

Tim Hole

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Adobe need to think seriously about Grading in AE CS6.

Adobe are making a big move for their end-to-end workflow from Story - OnLocation - Premiere - AfterEffects - Encore.

They have taken some great leaps but what they need to do is to work out a grading workspace. I am ok with dynamic linking an editing piece into AE but the way it takes every shot as a layer makes it not only ridiculous to navigate but also hard going on the workstation. I usually isolate layers or precompose scenes and work that way, but seriously there has to be a way to make it easier. I would like to see a hybrid of premiere and after effects that allows real time playback like in Premiere but with the strength of some of the filters available in AE. Either that or they SERIOUSLY need to improve Premiere's grading and colour correction side.

Thoughts on this?
 
Have you looked at Synthetic Aperture Color Finesse? It's included with AE and is quite powerful. This doesn't solve the current workflow issues, of course, but it's a good tool.

The interesting thing is that Synthetic Aperture makes a standalone version with an XML roundtrip workflow that's very much like Apple Color. Also uses a panel. In fact, it's been out since before Apple bought FinalTouch, but when that happened, it pretty much killed the market for CF as a standalone product.

My point is that this could be an interesting addition to the Adobe bundle if Adobe and Synthetic Aperture could work out a deal.

- Oliver
 
Another great tool "Colorist II"
 
I use Colorist II within Premiere Cs5 with great effect. My workflow usually goes like this.
1st light in RedCine X
Import into premiere, RedCine X settings allready applied to R3Ds
Edit
Color with Colorist II within premiere timeline.
Dynamic link specific clips that need compositing or After effects for additional grading.
I don't want After effects to get integrated with premiere, i feel that combining too many products into one application will only cause instability, slow features and overall weeken the experience. There are some great third party plugins that work great if you want to do color work within the timeline. There are also great third party products if you want to do traditional color grading separate from the editing timeline.
 
No, I agree with Tim.

I want at least the same controls RCX gives me, and most importantly the ability for them to work with a Tangent Wave in Windows. This would provide a 100% solution 95% of the time

Also, AE woudl be much easier to work with if the Timeline had a "Premiere Pro Mode" where clips would snap to each other and so no, and several clips would be on the same video channel - one could switch between the traditional AE view of the timeline, and the PPro view. This would solve a LOT of problems.
 
My workflow is similar to Stefan's and I really do not see any major functional drawbacks with it. Ae performs a significantly different set of tasks and as such is architected fundamentally differently than an NLE. Any effects that Adobe has in Ae would have to be completely re engineered to be added into Pr. Because the vast majority of people buy them bundled together I don't see them doing that.

To me the biggest problem is performance. When you do a render on a link to an Ae comp the Ae process does not pick up the multi-processor settings, rather it just runs like any other multi threaded process that cannot span CPUs. A comp that renders in 20 minutes in Ae takes over an hour in Pr.

The other drawback is the simplicity of the Source Settings panel. If you put a histogram and a few additional color tools there you wouldn't need to go to RedCine to set the base grade.

Bob
 
Bob Gruen said:
My workflow is similar to Stefan's and I really do not see any major functional drawbacks with it. Ae performs a significantly different set of tasks and as such is architected fundamentally differently than an NLE. Any effects that Adobe has in Ae would have to be completely re engineered to be added into Pr. Because the vast majority of people buy them bundled together I don't see them doing that.

To me the biggest problem is performance. When you do a render on a link to an Ae comp the Ae process does not pick up the multi-processor settings, rather it just runs like any other multi threaded process that cannot span CPUs. A comp that renders in 20 minutes in Ae takes over an hour in Pr.

The other drawback is the simplicity of the Source Settings panel. If you put a histogram and a few additional color tools there you wouldn't need to go to RedCine to set the base grade.

Bob
Click to expand...

Hi Bob,

you are dead on on both your points. A histogram and some other color tools in the source settings would be a great feature. Wonder if we would go and give that to you guys? hmmmm....

As for MP on dynamiclink. We know that is a weak point. We wanted to add it recently and didn't have the time to make sure it works great. But we know how to do it and are investigating it presently.

Cheers

Dave
 
+1 Vote for Histogram and other Scopes in the source
 
This has been my complaint about CS for a long time. Premiere and AE's built in graders don't compete with Color, Premiere's tools are much slower than FCP's 3-way color corrector.
 
David McGavran said:
Hi Bob,

you are dead on on both your points. A histogram and some other color tools in the source settings would be a great feature. Wonder if we would go and give that to you guys? hmmmm....

Cheers

Dave
Click to expand...


Like red color2? When David? When!?
 
Re: Colorist II - I think you're referring to Colorista II by redgiantsoftware.com

Re: Premiere like functions in AE. - I definitely don't want any of premiere's problem interfaces or stability in AE nor any tighter integration between the two. Currently it's fine, as long as AE is standalone and can render without Adobe Media Encoder. AE is not an editor, it's a compositor. It can definitely use improvement, but a tighter bond, especially anything that requires the use of Premiere or AME will severely weaken the offering AE provides.

AE should have had a video scope, histogram and waveform monitor from release 1. Now it's something like version 11 and it still doesn't have it! It should update live with the previewer, not like premiere's neutered scopes that only update when the video is paused.

Also AE, needs RedColor2, RedGamma2 and RedlogFilm!

Thanks for your involvement David!
Cory
 
David McGavran said:
..... Wonder if we would go and give that to you guys? hmmmm....

Cheers

Dave
Click to expand...

Dave
In your quest of "Trying to make Adobe the best software for RED footage!" I'm hoping you are also considering the "stills" ability of Epic and integration with your products.

I'm hoping as well as what you are considering with AE and Premier, you are also going to give us native Red Raw ability in Lightroom / Photoshop, ACR etc? These are fantastic products.
 
ColoristaII is a great tool but it's functionality is almost broken in Premiere CS5. It works as advertised in AE but I find the non-realtime nature of AE makes grading in that application a nightmare.

In Premiere I find the colour wheels unbearably sluggish and the power window borders for secondaries don't show up at all.

Premiere has all sorts of realtime colour grading tools but I the interface is uniquely "Adobe" so I can't seem to pull out a quality image using them. If Adobe can make MPE accelerated real-time grading tools I hope Red Giant can do the same with ColoristaIII.
 
Bob Gruen said:
[snip]Ae performs a significantly different set of tasks and as such is architected fundamentally differently than an NLE. [snip]
Bob
Click to expand...

I take it you mean under the hood, because AE's user interface is basically the interface from a shitty NLE.

I've always found AE to be neither fish nor fowl for most applications - a bizarre hybrid between a timeline like a real NLE and discrete layers like a real compositor, without really having the advantages of either...

AE really needs to understand that layers and footage are different things - multiple pieces of footage in one layer should be possible. Applying effects to individual footage items should be possible. This would go a long way to making a variety of tasks easier, including colour grading.
 
I have no wish for After Effects to be compromised at all, I use it for it's Prime purpose far more often than grading an entire film. There is however no ideal way to grade. Colorista is fine in AE, never used it in Prem because it is not responsive enough or realtime and as far as I'm aware no way to animate power windows. I would be fine grading with the current tools in AE but If you are grading a heavily cut piece it is more than a nightmare. Let alone the ram preview only.

How much have the GUI issues been resolved in Prem. I hear it is better than it was but really the fact that AE harmonises with 3rd party plugins, whereas Prem never has but isn't that an SDK Issue? I'm only going on 2nd hand information on that front so I don't know.

Premiere is too weak on the effects/grading side of things to be used. After Effects is more than powerful enough but is a nightmare.
 
Definitely where are the scopes in AE? I use 3rd party products to solve that issue, but it sure would be nice if it was included. Grading in AE can be powerful, but the lack of real-time playback while grading is a downer. Colorista II is nice but not a complete solution and I agree it's so sluggish in Premiere it's like nails on a chalkboard to use for a long period. I'd be okay with a new Adobe app that is strictly focused on grading, or just built some faster and more stable tools into Premiere.
 
a Premiere Lightroom would indeed be great... as long as it has a timeline and still allows use of multiple layer of footage with the ability to change transfer mode.
 
The trouble with a lot of these suggestions is that the others apps (like Scratch) are not cross-platform. I don't think Adobe wants to go down the route of a Windows-only or Mac-only solution.

What seems far more doable would be to integrate an optimized version of Colorista II into Premiere Pro and build a color correction mode or workflow around that. The plug-in's toolset is close enough for a lot of complex grading tasks. Coupled with access to the RED SDK, it's a pretty powerful answer to 90% of the grading work that people do. Right now Colorista II is a slug inside Premiere Pro, because of the terribly plug-in API. Premiere Pro also has no scene-by-scene process.

Fix these two things and you'd go a very long way towards turning Premiere Pro into a viable grading solution, that's at least on par or better than Avid Symphony.

- Oliver
 
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