Adjusted & Redacted test by R.C. ASC CSC

[Sanjin Jukic]

Thanks to observation of Paul Clemens, our respected RED User I will try now to make that analysis

with more direct and precise way using mostly available images to stay simple as it is.

It's about a famous test comparison shot published on http://vimeo.com/13352311 by Rodney Charters and Co.

IMAGE No.1

Image grab from the original Alexa HD-SDI out on Panasonic monitor published at http://vimeo.com/13352311 by Rodney Charters and Co.

IMAGE No.2

Image grab from the original R1-MX HD-SDI out on Panasonic monitor published at http://vimeo.com/13352311 by Rodney Charters and Co.

IMAGE No.3 MATCHING ALEXA to R1-MX

Image grab from the original Alexa HD-SDI out on Panasonic monitor to match R1-MX on the same clip published at http://vimeo.com/13352311 by Rodney Charters and Co.

This increased brightnes of the background at R1-MX example looks probably adjusted with iPhone or later in the post of the test documentary footage.

More precise images at the moment of the adjustment:

IMAGE No.4

Alexa example at the moment of closing HD-SDI feed.

IMAGE No.5

Alexa HD-SDI feed closed.

IMAGE No.6

Slight increasing the brightness and adding some contrast of the footage just before R1-MX feed starts (see the floor).

IMAGE No.7

When r1-MX HD-SDI feed started suddenly the footage have got even more blown up at the background (see the floor again)

For my point of view this documentary test example is a bit adjusted and redacted from its original.

Original Vimeo link>>

Because Rodney Charters is not participating here as a RED User

follow Rodney on Twitter: rodneykiwi

and try to discuss with him there about this test.

 

[Elijah Kelley]

Detective

Detective

How many time did you watch the footage before
seeing the change in lighting?

 

[Stuart English]

Monitor setup

Monitor setup

BTW Sanjin: as you have the original images....

Do those four LED's over the knobs on the bottom right of the Panasonic monitor look illuminated to you?

If they are, according to page 9 of a Panasonic BT-LH1760 Operations Manual

---

4. Picture Adjusting Knob

PHASE
CHROMA
BRIGHTNESS
CONTRAST / BACKLIGHT

When values are changed from the factory defaults, the LED above the knob (amber) lights.

---

i.e. if the brightness and contrast have been adjusted away standard REC709 the visual result is not unexpected..

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

BTW Sanjin: as you have the original images....

Do those four LED's over the knobs on the bottom right of the Panasonic monitor look illuminated to you?

If they are, according to page 9 of a Panasonic BT-LH1760 Operations Manual

---

4. Picture Adjusting Knob

PHASE
CHROMA
BRIGHTNESS
CONTRAST / BACKLIGHT

When values are changed from the factory defaults, the LED above the knob (amber) lights.

---

i.e. if the brightness and contrast have been adjusted away standard REC709 the visual result is not unexpected..

Stuart,

you are totally right.

And also in the case of Alexa feed was chosen YPsPn/RGB port and for R1-MX SDI 1 port at the front panel.

Have a look in detail of page 9 from Panasonic BT-LH1760 HD-SDI Monitor Operating Manual:

Download Operating Manual>>>

 

[Stuart English]

Inputs...

Inputs...

I agree, I think its the other way around - HD-SDI for the RED ONE and component analog for the Alexa...

... but either way if did adjust the monitor settings to suite one input, and then just switch over to the other input, it would not be surprising to see a levels error.

 

[Michael Hastings]

This is all getting a bit OCD here at REDUSER. Come on. Breaking down a vimeo video to try to prove "something".

Jez. Folks should all take a step back and leave this alone. It's getting so that Rusers are looking very insecure.

I have a ton of faith in RED M, RED M-X and the images they produce.

Everyone has a shit fit because Rodney says this or says that based on a monitoring path.

I'm shocked at how this video is being broken down like the Zapruder film and everyone wants to be the smartest kid in the room, playing Dick Tracey, like they "found something".

EPIC is going to be EPIC.

If people want to play WYSIWYG with "digital" because they think "it's better" who really gives a flying fuck.

OK. Rant over.

PLease pay attention to my signature file which I sort of violated with this post.


David

great post david, deserves to be quoted. As an early R1 adopter (sn206) and stage 2 epic I am both a little frustrated at the delays and fully confident that Epic will be at least very close in any aspect to Alexa with the bonus of higher resolution among other things.

But I am even more frustrated at the level of discourse that often occurs on REDUSER because I think it does reflect and have an effect on both the product and other REDUSERs. The market impression/reputation of a company/camera/user base - whether accurate or not - has a HUGE impact on whether that camera is rented or owner/operators are hired. It has been true since Sony Betacam beat out Panasonic M format and is still true today. So I wish people would consider this when they get off into some of this silliness.

By the time anyone but an original R1 owner can buy an Epic the camera will have been in use on hundreds of productions by thousands of users and the technical facts will be well known and publicized, which makes a lot of this simply mental masturbation with little purpose.

 

[Dan Kanes]

Down and to the left

Down and to the left...


It was the Electrician with the 5k on the grassy knoll!

 

[Petros Nousias]

It's because of threads like this that REDUSER's reputation is so bad across the net.

 

[Jeff Coatney]

It's because of threads like this that REDUSER's reputation is so bad across the net.

It all starts with the FUD.

 

[Dustin Cross]

You guys are getting crazy. The exposure change is from the crappy camera phone they are using.

And every monitor I work with has to be adjusted from factory settings. You send bars and adjust the monitor.

Everyone here knows this is a pointless test.


Dusty

 

[David Battistella]

To be completely fair to Sanjin.

I believe that Sanjin has made amazing contributions to this forum, but I also believe that this thread taking it all a bit too far.

David

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

It's because of threads like this that REDUSER's reputation is so bad across the net.

You must be totally wrong just because RED-USER is one on the most popular digital camera forums "across the net".

Read the numbers of visitors from RED-USER forum and compare the numbers with other similar forums "across the net"...

If you are with so bad reputation nobody is gonna visit your site, right?

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

To be completely fair to Sanjin.

I believe that Sanjin has made amazing contributions to this forum, but I also believe that this thread taking it all a bit too far.

David

Thanks David for your kind words of support.

I'll try to keep talking with the facts and evidences and to make less noise as I can.

Nobody's perfect.

 

[Steven Caesare]

great post david, deserves to be quoted. As an early R1 adopter (sn206) and stage 2 epic I am both a little frustrated at the delays and fully confident that Epic will be at least very close in any aspect to Alexa with the bonus of higher resolution among other things.

But I am even more frustrated at the level of discourse that often occurs on REDUSER because I think it does reflect and have an effect on both the product and other REDUSERs. The market impression/reputation of a company/camera/user base - whether accurate or not - has a HUGE impact on whether that camera is rented or owner/operators are hired. It has been true since Sony Betacam beat out Panasonic M format and is still true today. So I wish people would consider this when they get off into some of this silliness.

By the time anyone but an original R1 owner can buy an Epic the camera will have been in use on hundreds of productions by thousands of users and the technical facts will be well known and publicized, which makes a lot of this simply mental masturbation with little purpose.

Whereas I prefer precise and correct information, and open discourse.

I'd much rather see something glaringly inaccuarte addressed... I don't consider that silly at all. Expecially when perpetrated y somebody with some recognition to his name.

Quite frankly, I wouldn't care to be working with people who: a) Didn't know their craft or equipment well enough to know better, or b) would find it offensive to make sure truthful and accurate information was presented.


-sc

 

[XiaoSu Han]

"Thanks Jim Compared to the MX Alexa is way up on DR. Resolution? Actors complain about it. Too sharp! It's an issue."

so true!

 

[Chris Parker]

what a silly thread. i'll move over to jim's much more reasonable one on the topic.....

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

what a silly thread. i'll move over to jim's much more reasonable one on the topic.....

Obviously simvideo guys don't like the facts and evidences about their's doing things...

Nothing silly with those nicely presented analyzes and thoughts about that video shot at simvideo space.

 

[Stuart English]

Sharp

Sharp

Resolution? Actors complain about it. Too sharp! It's an issue."

so true!

Except that SHARPNESS and RESOLUTION are NOT the same thing....

When actors complain, it is because of inappropriate amounts of EDGE DETAIL a.k.a ACUTANCE, not because of RESOLUTION.

You can have both high resolution AND low sharpness. Or low resolution AND high sharpness.

See the example of the sweater here

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/sharpness.htm

 

[Stuart English]

Monitor set up

Monitor set up

And every monitor I work with has to be adjusted from factory settings. You send bars and adjust the monitor.

In the analog domain yes, in the digital domain you should not have to.

But the point is, if you have adjusted it away from factory presets, then you better say so (if you are going to do an A/B camera quality test )

 

[Stephen Matthews]

It's funny though all these "it was the camera's auto exposure" excuses don't fly for me. You are a DP testing a camera and the only camera you have to use and film the DR of a monitor is one where you can't lock exposure? if that was the case and I got home and looked at the video I would toss it in the garbage and be very upset with myself for using an inferior product to document a test. Now assuming Rodney is much more technically inclined than me (I'm positive he is) why would he post something like this knowing full well the exposure shift. Perhaps he never meant to start this whole debate and was only giving people a small peak into a large test he will reveal later. I hope so, it's funny the flack people are getting for questioning Rodney's methods I'm happy people point out things like this. I can't stand being lied to or deceived even when the people may not even know they are doing it.

As others have said hopefully we can all forget that little "test" and move on to Jim's much more balanced test, and who knows maybe we all might be surprised by Rodney publishing his results too.

If we don't question each other and challenge and re-affirm our beliefs we become stale and out of date.

Keep on respectfully challenging authorities and pushing the limits of what you can accomplish.

Have a good one