A Response To Jim Jannard and 1080P

[Sanjin Jukic]

That will be why the alexa was pretty much unavailable to rent in london due to high demand. It seems to be the most popular digital camera for commercials, at the moment.

First there are not so many Alexa cameras in London rentals anyway.

Second Alexa already reached the highest point of that sort of London's hype.

When Epic and Scarlet start to ship in bigger volumes next year that game is over.

Also I forgot to mention that when very soon Olympus start to deliver camera at 1080p with variable frame rates

many of 1080p brands and vendors will close their shops after that.

Keep in mind this just because Olympus have the best digital image colorimetry and matrix today that have seen in any digital image acquisition, cine or still.

 

[shashbugu]

Dear Sir, I could be wrong, but my comment was based upon obervation of advances Red has made for some time. Red's understanding of digital imaging has vastly improved over the years. But I'm not sure if digital distribution, deployment, and storage is among Red's core competence. I also get the impression that Red is trying to do several projects at the same time. It is certainly desirable for Red to manufacture and control the entire imaging pipeline from acquisition to distribution, and I can understand this, however, it would appear to me that Red might like to sort out issues in production and manufacturing, before initiating other/new projects that further drain the already constrained resources.

Joofa

Are you from the Dark ages or do you even understand digital film production, distribution and exhibition?

All Jim is saying is as an industry if the technological bar (in this case 1080P, set in 1980's) is set so low, ingenuity to produce a digital business model whose aim is to replace the old 35mm film model will always be inadequate.

Red is saying we can build a camera thats surpasses the status quo (current acquisition standard 35mm film stock), we can build a distribution codec whose data rate is 10% the status quo but 4 times the resolution, we can build a physical 4K player (Red Ray), all the other companies have to do is build the TV's, projectors, monitors and other devices to screen this format cheaper and more effectively than the status quo.

I don't see how a company telling you what they can do for you equates to resource over stretching, incompetence etc. etc.

The only reason the Epic is just going into production is because they want the experience to be everything a filmmaker ever. in the meantime whilst you wait use a Redone-mx is incredibly amazing.

You said red is incompetent with deployment or storage.
You must be incompetent with knowing what an SSD is. Its one model for both deployment and storage. its solid state, which means no moving element. that essentially does away with LTO, HDSR tapes and unpredictable spinning element hard drives. I mean you can shoot with a red SSD and transfer to a slower cheaper off the shelf SSD for storage.

but just in case you live in a hole or jail and have not seen a Red-mx film follow this link below.

http://trailers.apple.com/trailers/disney/piratesofthecaribbeanonstrangertides/

i am kind of really ticked off with your disrespectful post so i'm not even going check my typos.

 

[shashbugu]

That will be why the alexa was pretty much unavailable to rent in london due to high demand. It seems to be the most popular digital camera for commercials, at the moment.

The reason there are no Alexa's for rent is because nobody is really buying them. to get Arri raw you need a heavy $20,000 recorder. to get Red raw you need a $50 compact flash card, do the math.

I mean no disrespect but the truth is all the people shooting Alexa have been anti Red nay sayers from day one, including the leader of the pack Roger Deakens. Like I said I mean no disrespect I admire his work and appreciate his deep understanding and knowledge of cinematography. But when it comes to Red-MX the HOMIE is dead wrong period.:rant:

 

[Francesco Bonomo]

you can't take Alexa in your handbag, sit on a bike and ride around the city to shoot.

That's true, but has it occured to you that maybe that camera wasn't designed for that kind of use? I mean, would you take a 416 or a 235 in your handbag or backpack, jump on your bike and go shooting around with them?

The second is that I was talking from the beginning that Arri took totally wrong approach to build camera for 1080p "good enough" size format.

From my very limited perspective, it seems that's what a lot of people think, and from what I've heard it was probably the most asked question at Alexa presentations around the world. The camera looks nice, it produces very good images, it's very easy to operate, the workflow is loved by many, but the main problems people seem to have with it are the evf and mainly the sensor resolution (and I'm not talking about its size because Epic is not out yet, but obviously that could play a huge role in the very near future).

But, when you think about the fact that a lot of movies are still shot on 35mm film and Arri has a huge interest/investment in that format (and probably consider it to still be the "top" from their point of view), in the very short term it makes sense, for them (mind you, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me, if they have the skills and the capacity of producing a 4k/5k sensor, it doesn't make a lot of sense to put a 3.2k to 2k sensor in the camera anyway).

Commitment to 1080p "good enough" approach could soon become a double-edged sword for the company like an Arri.

Again, as David Mullen earlier rightly put it, is a question about the timeline..."soon" could mean months, or years. IF 1080p disappeared overnight and Alexa was the only camera "stuck" in the past, then you might me right, I guess we just have to wait and see.
On the other hand, i don't think a company like Arri is so blind: they can publicly say that 1080p is more than good enough now (and those words will kick them in the ass later, when they'll say that their new 4k/5K/6k sensor is better than the current Alev), but I wouldn't be surprised if they were already working their asses off on the next generation of sensors, because that's what people are asking them.

Still, by the time Epic is available everywhere, and that's a matter of months, so it's truly around the corner, people will see the difference on screen, not on paper or on charts, and I think for many Alexa will look one generation too old. By the time they're ready, they may be very late, considering Epic is ready and shooting, but I wouldn't say Arri is "doomed" just because they made a choice that makes sense to them at the moment.

I mean no disrespect but the truth is all the people shooting Alexa have been anti Red nay sayers from day one

ALL the people? Please do not generalize like that. There are people who use both Red and Alexa, depending on the jobs they need the cameras for, and have very nice things to say about both of them, for different reasons.

 

[Cüneyt Kaya]

dunno, i dont really care for the Alexa, it costs 70 000 usd and i cant buy it.
will have an epic and can shoot wherever and whenever i want.
i can shoot HS which makes the Epic much more sexy to the commercials and musicvideo world.
alexas main market here is for TV pictures.
but at least the number of TV pictures is higher than cinema movies.
Epic will rule high budget 200 000000 usd 3D movies and indy films a like.
when in sommer the epics hit the street in great volume it will takeover.
if red is interested in taking over the TV productions a simple 1080p/2k ProRes module recording to redlogfilm can make that happen.

anyway, the Alexa owners should try to get their money back till end of 2011, if not it can get
pretty hard for them when there will be 400 usd/day epics.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Francesco,

I have to repeat a couple of times here that the main ticket for 4K+ is not a sensor.

It's a CODEC and in the case of RED is REDCODE RAW that you can find in R3D files.

A lot of DSLR vendors have 4K+ sensors but can't get more than "line skipping",

aliasing/moire artifacts 1080p "good enough" video with H264 or AVCHD codec that were used for recording.

This must be clear now for everybody who want to talk about 4K+ acquisition.


Btw, Aaton Penelope ∆ record 4K with uncompressed RAW 16bit onboard at up to 800MB/sec in a slide-in

Aaton DeltaPack using Aaton Dalsa® CCD sensor with 13 stops dynamic range. 800/100 ISO switchable it

virtually eliminates the use of ND filters. Very low noise at 3200 ISO equivalent.

We still have to see how all that is working properly...

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

I also get the impression that Red is trying to do several projects at the same time.

Same as any other larger company. So ?

It is certainly desirable for Red to manufacture and control the entire imaging pipeline from acquisition to distribution, and I can understand this, however, it would appear to me that Red might like to sort out issues in production and manufacturing, before initiating other/new projects that further drain the already constrained resources.

Joofa

1. It is highly unlikely Red will ever manufacture and control entire imaging pipeline from imaging to distribution and it doesn't have to. What's enough is creating crucial elements in that pipeline and ensuring all other pipeline products manufacturers have the support Red can provide to adapt to new standards.

2. Issues in production and manufacturing are not dependent on multiple simultaneous projects.

 

[Ivan Kovax]

A funny thing happens when you browse through the general arguments in this thread but instead of the terms '1080p' and '4K' you substitute 'black and white' and 'color'.

Or if you like, 'silent films' and 'talkies'.

It's fun! Try it!

I was think the very same thing

 

[Gunleik Groven]

A funny thing happens when you browse through the general arguments in this thread but instead of the terms '1080p' and '4K' you substitute 'black and white' and 'color'.

Or if you like, 'silent films' and 'talkies'.

It's fun! Try it!

LOL.

Good point.

there was actually a political party here in Norway that was against color-TV...

Hope I don't come out like one of them.

I think David and Stuart summed it nicely up.

It's a matter of timeline for general implementation. For some users, it will happen earlier than for others.

Another discussion, related to the main which pops up is:
Where is the 4k deliverable content?

M Most has answered that to some degree: @ Warner...

It'd be fun to hear from Mark f. ex. how many 4k ready finnishes he has in the freezer. Maybe I'd get a surprise independently of his answer...

A third is infrastructure.

For some kinds of delivery: It is hre.

For others:

Not yet...

Done!

-

 

[Ivan Kovax]

4k monitors have been available for many years for professional uses. Hasn't gotten us any closer to 4k distribution - or even mastering - for media. A recent post here really showed me how far away that is. The Social Network was shot on Red One MX and the first thing they did was turn each frame into a 2048x1024 frame. Obviously that group doesn't see 4k mass distribution coming any time soon.

Regarding TVs/monitors. The same pattern happens with every new technology. You could use the same argument for there for 1080p before 1080p was a common format. If consumers have no present need for it, then there will be no high consumer demand for it, that doesn't negate the fact that they might in the future especially when it is clear that the future is headed that way.

Regarding the Social Network, I think the point was more that they did shoot it at 4K and are thereby future proofing themselves. They fact that they converted right to 2K for editing and/or delivery purposes (as many on this forum do themselves) is another issue altogether. Right now the market is not saturated with 4K projectors, but it is with 2k/HD, so it doesn't make sense to release a movie only in 4K.

And anyway, from a producer's and distributor's standpoint it makes sense to hold off on 4K until they have fleeced Blu/DVD/netflix sales as re-releasing the movie in 4K down the road in multiple editions will once more be another revenue spinner for them...

 

[Gunleik Groven]

For M Most

For M Most

Can 2k DCP servers playback and scale a 4k DCP?
or will I have to make 2 unique masters?


Cheers!

G

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

Can 2k DCP servers playback and scale a 4k DCP?
or will I have to make 2 unique masters?


Cheers!

G

100% - YES.

You can take a 4K DCP and playout the 2K extraction. I've done it many times. But the server doesn't "scale" - it just extracts the 2K in realtime - sound familiar?

The issue here is that most of the time 4K DCPs are made with the data rate of 250Mb - same as 2K DCPs - so if you make a 4K DCP - technically, your 2K extraction (from a 4K DCP) has more compression than is you made a 2K DCP at 250Mb.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

100% - YES.

You can take a 4K DCP and playout the 2K extraction. I've done it many times. But the server doesn't "scale" - it just extracts the 2K in realtime.

Thanks.

the beauty of wavelets...

 

[Stuart English]

Image Quality

Image Quality

...so as you say, simply comparing numbers doesn't really tell an accurate story, in terms of either ultimate quality, color space accuracy, or bit depth capabilities ...

Yes I totally agreed with that, it's been common consumer marketing practice to "pick a number" that can be used as a quality indicator, but which often does not adequately describe the final results. e.g. Blue-ray uses more bits per sec than 4K RED RAY (and as we are discussing so does a 2K or 4K DCP package) hence some will say it must be "better"...

However technologies do evolve, and so the data rates can drop - for example the data rate of RED ONE at 4K is comparable to a D5-HD tape at 1080p. Bottom line though is it's good to have choices, and shooting and archiving in 4K or 5K maintains the option to distribute in a wide variety of resolutions - and RED RAY delivers a compelling option for 4K delivery on low cost solid state media or via IP networks.

 

[Lee Fingersh]

A funny thing happens when you browse through the general arguments in this thread but instead of the terms '1080p' and '4K' you substitute 'black and white' and 'color'.

Or if you like, 'silent films' and 'talkies'.

It's fun! Try it!

You're not paying attention to the arguments.

I'm currently sitting in a family member's house for the holiday. I'm watching HD from DirecTV on their 50" TV, which is pretty close to the biggest TV they could have in this room given its shape without blocking a doorway. I'm sitting on their couch 14 feet from the TV. To take advantage of more resolution than 1080p, I'd need to watch the TV with binoculars.

Explain how the same situation applies to color versus black and white.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

The issue here is that most of the time 4K DCPs are made with the data rate of 250Mb - same as 2K DCPs - so if you make a 4K DCP - technically, your 2K extraction (from a 4K DCP) has more compression than is you made a 2K DCP at 250Mb.

That explains why...

a) the datarate doesn't explode on the 2k servers face...

b) it might be good to make two masters anyhow...

What would you recomend as mastering format?

I guess EXR (if the transcoding software supports it) or 16 bit dpx?

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

What would you recomend as mastering format?

I guess EXR (if the transcoding software supports it) or 16 bit dpx?

I recommend 16-bit LIN files - 16-bit DPX or OpenEXR.

I'm currently weighing the pros and cons of each for OFFHOLLYWOOD's 4K Finishing - but - I'm leaning towards OpenEXR as it offers more flexibility as you can store different views in alt. channels - so ... for example - instead of mastering addition textless masters - on the frames where you have text over picture - you could/would have one channel with the "comp" (text over picture), one channel with the text elements, one channel with the alpha of text elements, and one channel with clean bg (textless).

More and more apps are supporting 16-bit DPX - Assimilate's Scratch supports it, RCX supports it - but most high-end apps support EXR as well - and if we are talking mastering - I think the advantages of the flexibility of EXR far outweigh the fact that most apps can not handle EXR in realtime for playback.

I also want to confirm that I'll be able to encode to REDRAY directly from EXR.

I've got some more tests to run - and I'd love to hear other people thoughts on 16-bit DPX vs. EXR - but I guess that should be another thread.

But ... go 16-bit - and go LIN. Just say no to 10-bit LOG DPX.

 

[Billy Barber]

Originally posted by Lee Fingersh

Explain how the same situation applies to color versus black and white.

OK. One word: inevitability.

 

[Dj Joofa]

Hi Joofa!

Do you have access to information we don't know? Specifically, about the drained/constrained resources of RED. Or, are you just assuming?


Warm regards,
George

Hi, several of Red's cameras have been delayed by several years now. Jim Jannard has said many times that they are trying their best and working at their fullest for their delivery now. Are you saying that they have unused potential sitting idle and they are deliberately delaying the projects?

Look, I am a great admirer of Red. I think they have created a great camera. In my estimation their priority should be a timely delivery of delayed products. Once that is done they might work on projects such as distribution more meaningfully.

Joofa

 

[Gunleik Groven]

From that logic, it may not be coincidential that Jim comes with these statements now.

My guess is that the only reason RedRay is delayed, is for RED to get some infrastructure and partners around the codec and the technology. Jims responses points that way.

Web delivery to home and Cinema seems like the obvious suspect, judging from RED teams responses to this and the other thread.

For that to get any traction, people will have to finnish more often in 4k...

So Jim throws the glove, and I start concidering finnishing relevant stuff in 4k now.

Thus: It works.
Yes. It's marketing.
Still.
It works...

What I hope, is that RedRay won't be locked to 24/48 fps, like DCP is.
I hope it will support 25/50/100 too...

It's a major PITA to have to consider both framerates when doing a production here in 25 fps land...