A justified buy?

[Christoffer Glans]

So, after I have been working with Red cameras since the first ever in Sweden I'm beginning to think about buying one of my own, a Scarlet Dragon to be precise. But even though it's very cheap, it still cost a lot of money for someone that doesn't work directly as a DOP or rental company. My reason for buying it is that I already own equipment for post production and I could basically do 4K productions with my company (which consists of only me) if I had a 4K camera. I work mainly as an editor full time but I've been aiming for directing as my main profession for as long as I can remember. So this buy is a way of boosting myself to actually start making stuff for real, not just edit and post for others or writing screenplays over and over without having the time to actually realize any of them. I know a lot of people working in production and one of my best friends is a DP so it's not me by myself.

So, my question is if a Scarlet Dragon buy is a justified buy for my need. It's a lot of money (taking into account all the accessories as well), but with the Dragon sensor I could also rent it out, something I might not be able to with a lesser camera (at least not at a good price for me). I'm not going to be able to earn a living as a DP myself, even though I've worked as a still photographer, so I will mostly use this for my own projects or rent it out for others.

So, I need a little help deciding if it's actually good business to buy one or if I'm just throwing away my money?

 

[Phil Holland]

I already own equipment for post production and I could basically do 4K productions with my company (which consists of only me) if I had a 4K camera. I work mainly as an editor full time but I've been aiming for directing as my main profession for as long as I can remember. So this buy is a way of boosting myself to actually start making stuff for real, not just edit and post for others or writing screenplays over and over without having the time to actually realize any of them. I know a lot of people working in production and one of my best friends is a DP so it's not me by myself.

It sounds like you have answered your own questions already.

Seriously though. If it can provide value and potential for new revenue in your given business I don't see why it wouldn't be a strong tool.

Flip side would be how often are you shooting, desiring to shoot, and does it make sense in that way?

I know people who own gear who literally use it for 1 month out of the year. That spooks me out a bit. I'm more in the get it and shoot with it as much as you can logic. But there's weeks when I'm doing other things not so camera related and more pencil or computer related. It's a balancing act.

Make sure you get it and shoot for profit. Shoot for fun as well.

 

[Marc Berger]

For me my main camera is like the instrument for a musician. I could not live with just renting one, I have to have at least one around me all the time and... practice, practice and practice between jobs. Also own projects have a different dimension when I have a camera available all the time.
But that´s just me and it´s not a pure business decision. Buying the camera I want, was never a "throwing away money" situation, because it does not have to do with money (as long I have some to buy it).
I guess I could not help you with that,
anyway,
Cheers and have a lot of fun with your new Scarlet!
Marc

 

[Graham Spencer-Scott]

I'm not a pro making money from my Scarlet, or renting it out either. I justified camera ownership by taking the daily average rental rate in my area, and figuring out how many days it would take in renting to equal my purchase expenditure. Do you have that many days of shooting to do in the next year? If so go or it!
Remember -Dragon is the best sensor ever made to date...and really represents Scarlet's future for the next few years.

 

[Marc Wielage]

I think when things are changing so fast these days, it would be wiser to rent for the first year, determine what your market and business situation is, and then project ahead a few years and see if it makes economic sense to buy a camera instead of renting. Don't overlook the possibility of buying used gear, which is plentiful all over the place.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Flip side would be how often are you shooting, desiring to shoot, and does it make sense in that way?

I know people who own gear who literally use it for 1 month out of the year. That spooks me out a bit. I'm more in the get it and shoot with it as much as you can logic. But there's weeks when I'm doing other things not so camera related and more pencil or computer related. It's a balancing act.

Make sure you get it and shoot for profit. Shoot for fun as well.

I sorta see it as a motivational tool; if I own it I will force myself to really make something out of my projects instead of just setting them aside in favor of working as an editor for other peoples projects. I will still be primary making my income as an editor, so yes it might be on the shelf for a while, but I'm thinking of renting it out at those times.

I think when things are changing so fast these days, it would be wiser to rent for the first year, determine what your market and business situation is, and then project ahead a few years and see if it makes economic sense to buy a camera instead of renting. Don't overlook the possibility of buying used gear, which is plentiful all over the place.

The market isn't really the concern because I already have a market in editing, so my company will not gain or loose because of this camera. But it's still money that I could use for other private expenses instead.
Still, this is my greatest concern; there are a lot of 4K cameras coming out that are dropping in price, like BlackMagic, AJA Cion, Kinemax 6K etc and DSLRs is getting better and better, not to mention the Magic Lantern hack for 5D which, even though it's not perfect, still offers FF RAW at 40 fps.
My reasoning for Scarlet Dragon is that it's more future proof then the others, it's 16,5 stops and offers 48fps at 5K. It's a great sensor and it's an attractive camera for rental, the others not so much.
And my reason for not renting is that I want to learn and know the camera in and out, I want to develop tricks that I can use to make greater images for less time and money, something very hard to do when you only get footage from client-driven projects.

But still, it's not cheap and it will be a big investment for me and my small company.

 

[Arthur Woo]

I would separate out your motivation into two categories:

1. Business related: Is your main goal to make money out of it? How realistic is it to recoup the cost of the camera in your market? Do your clients need raw for their projects? Do they need 5k/4k and are willing to pay for it?

2. Personal related: You want to learn the RED system. You want to shoot 4K raw. The difference btwn RED other brands when it comes to raw is the redcode compression. You can get a lot of footage at higher compression rates where the image is still very good, compared to other systems who have not really optmized the amt of data yet.

A lot of your reasoning sounds more personally motivated than financially motivated. If your main goal is to make money with it, then count it up financially and see if it makes sense.

If your main goal is personal with some added business benefits, I think buying into RED is great. I came from the world of DSLRs. It not only made me learn a more professional workflow, but I also had to up my skill/knowledge in color grading, exposing, etc. I assume since you're an editor you already know what I'm talking about. The camera itself hasn't brought me more clients because most people don't ask what I'm shooting on. However, the quality of the footage and the latitude I have in post make people want me to work on their projects. More projects => more experience => bigger projects and it is a cycle as you progress. Hope that helps.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

I would separate out your motivation into two categories:

1. Business related: Is your main goal to make money out of it? How realistic is it to recoup the cost of the camera in your market? Do your clients need raw for their projects? Do they need 5k/4k and are willing to pay for it?

2. Personal related: You want to learn the RED system. You want to shoot 4K raw. The difference btwn RED other brands when it comes to raw is the redcode compression. You can get a lot of footage at higher compression rates where the image is still very good, compared to other systems who have not really optmized the amt of data yet.

A lot of your reasoning sounds more personally motivated than financially motivated. If your main goal is to make money with it, then count it up financially and see if it makes sense.

Also, I've worked with Red since the first Red One so I'm very familiar with Red cameras through shoot and post production, it's a camera I can handle with ease and therefor I lean more twords it then any other camera. Thing is also that while 4K isn't really a viable business today, it will be in a couple of years and Scarlet Dragon seems to be a choice that will hold it's fort for a very long time compared to other digital cinema cameras.

But you are right that my main goal is personal, but it's not for personal use. I'm aiming for directing feature films and owning my own equipment enables me to keep the costs down of an entire feature film shoot. Like Dallas Byers Club that was shot without set lights it's entirely possible to shoot a movie (that still looks good) on those terms. And with the photographic capabilities of the Dragon sensor, the possibilities for these situations are even better. A rental cost for a camera package during a month of feature film production is around 15 500 USD (over here). But I'm then also not bound to the span of the shoot schedule and could add additional photography whenever I want without any production costs.
My goal is to work full time as a swiss knife; writing producing, directing, editing and grade/postproduction, areas where I already have experience in.

So while it won't be financial right now, it's my goal to get there eventually.

 

[Domenic Barbero]

If I had an epic x or scarlet dragon in front of me I would choose the scarlet dragon 9/10 times over current mx epic. It's got everything thing you need for narrative and commercial minus the high frame rates. Which are hardly used in the real world. I bought one to be with my epic dragon. I'm personally super excited about it. I think the scarlet dragon is now a legit a cam.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Owning gives freedom and potential rentals.
But it binds liquidity.

If you can make use of it yourself, it is good to own.

 

[Robert Ruffo New]

If I had an epic x or scarlet dragon in front of me I would choose the scarlet dragon 9/10 times over current mx epic. It's got everything thing you need for narrative and commercial minus the high frame rates. Which are hardly used in the real world. I bought one to be with my epic dragon. I'm personally super excited about it. I think the scarlet dragon is now a legit a cam.

Epic has a wider field of view, which means all images look better if you use lenses that cover the full sensor, which is why I would rather have an Epic MX than Dragon Scarlet - because the difference is more visible more often.

In what we do we use slomo in almost every prod.

Scarlet is also seen as lower end - and in this business perception is reality.

 

[Ash Worth]

Cost is not justified. Search forum for stories of people buying one camera to rent and not being successful, not having a full kit etc. If you want to shoot buy a DSLR and learn your craft that way. Unlikely that a production would do a high price rental with you as a DP, however there's a lot of opportunity in the web media business.

If you can't make nice images with a DSLR this will not change if you had a RED. It's not the camera blah, blah, blah...

Bad business decision.

 

[Eric Santiago]

Owning gives freedom and potential rentals.
But it binds liquidity.

If you can make use of it yourself, it is good to own.

I purchased it as part owner, user and education.

I wanted to learn using the best I can afford

I never looked back even at my kraft dinner stages

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Cost is not justified. Search forum for stories of people buying one camera to rent and not being successful, not having a full kit etc. If you want to shoot buy a DSLR and learn your craft that way. Unlikely that a production would do a high price rental with you as a DP, however there's a lot of opportunity in the web media business.

If you can't make nice images with a DSLR this will not change if you had a RED. It's not the camera blah, blah, blah...

Bad business decision.

You might have missed a few things. First, this is the Scarlet Dragon, it's much more like the Epic-X then the Scarlet MX so the rental value is higher. Second, I said numerous times that I will not act as a DP. For the projects I intend to use it for is for productions I direct and as I said, I have a lot of friends in production who will be handling the camera department and DP when I direct. As for shooting as a DP myself, I'm not a professional DP, but I have worked as a still photographer, as a clapper/loader, focus puller and DIT and I know more then most about a number of different cameras.

I'm no newbie in this game, I've worked professionally with film and television for over 7 years.

As you mentioned, people unsuccessfully rent out cameras because they don't have a full kit. I see that as a problem if they are charging the same price as rental houses, but if I have a semi-full kit able to handle a minor production and renting it out at a much lower cost then rental houses, then people will likely rent it... why? Because that is what I have done in the past, pushing costs down on a tight budget by renting from someone owning a camera privately.

Then I wonder what you mean about "can't make nice images with a DSLR", how do you know I can't? And no, for video you can never achieve the same quality as a Red camera with a DSLR.

 

[Ash Worth]

So this buy is a way of boosting myself to actually start making stuff for real, not just edit and post for others or writing screenplays over and over without having the time to actually realize any of them. I know a lot of people working in production and one of my best friends is a DP so it's not me by myself.

I was responding to this comment, sorry for not being clearer. You could start doing the above, as I suggested with a DSLR, with minimal investment, a couple of thousand, you could start next week. The other option is investing close to $30,000 in a basic package, that is the absolute minimum to rent. If you don't have real bookings / solid business plan for camera to recoup in 1-2 years then its not a good investment. Tech improves and gets cheaper quickly. Plus whens the earliest you could get your Scarlett Dragon?

Then I wonder what you mean about "can't make nice images with a DSLR", how do you know I can't? And no, for video you can never achieve the same quality as a Red camera with a DSLR.

The context of my comment was for video for web, where most of independent video production ends up. And your 100% wrong a skilled DP could achieve the same quality as any RED from a DSLR when viewed on the web. If your committed to this attitude than I do worry that you think having a Scarlett Dragon will automatically make you create better quality.

Good luck with the purchase.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

I was responding to this comment, sorry for not being clearer. You could start doing the above, as I suggested with a DSLR, with minimal investment, a couple of thousand, you could start next week. The other option is investing close to $30,000 in a basic package, that is the absolute minimum to rent. If you don't have real bookings / solid business plan for camera to recoup in 1-2 years then its not a good investment. Tech improves and gets cheaper quickly. Plus whens the earliest you could get your Scarlett Dragon?

I've already done high end productions with Red and Alexa, I'm not in the game to make amateur films, I'm working with shorts and feature films for cinema release. I already own a DSLR and I own post production equipment to make 4K productions from Red or whatever camera is used. I agree though that tech gets cheaper and improves quickly, but that is true for everything. But looking at how development has been on camera development, the Scarlet Dragon is still the cheapest of all cameras comparing spec and price. It's like when you wait for the next iteration of a computer from companies like Apple. I could wait 6 months for the next Macbook Pro or buy the current best one. Or I could buy a lower priced old one, but not being able to work at optimal speeds.

The context of my comment was for video for web, where most of independent video production ends up. And your 100% wrong a skilled DP could achieve the same quality as any RED from a DSLR when viewed on the web. If your committed to this attitude than I do worry that you think having a Scarlett Dragon will automatically make you create better quality.

As before, I've already worked with high end cameras for both television and feature films, I've also worked with 35mm print release shot on Red One. My intention is not independent film for web, my intention is cinema, TV, netflix etc. If it's for web then it will be high quality, not some codec-destroyed youtube clip.
I must also say that you are wrong about a skilled DP being able to achieve the same quality. It's the collaborative work of DP, director and colorist that make images and the images out of a Red is light years better then any DSLR. If you have a skilled DP then DSLR images will be good, the same shots with a Red will be much much better. With a DSLR you also don't have much room to do anything in grading, you also can't do high speed shots on set. You can't shoot against a sky because it will blow out on a DSLR, you will get moiare and a rolling shutter from hell.

But most important, if you shoot on a DSLR, there's a good chance that many distribution companies and channels won't accept your production because the quality isn't on par with their standard releases.