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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

A Few Things

That customers have to come back is indeed an real problem, especially compared to hdcam. They used to rent the hdcam camera, a hdcam vcr, done. work, master to tape.
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Ah - I see what you're getting at, now. And naturally, it's not possible for your clients to leverage the infrastructure built up around a particular delivery format unless you're able to deliver in that format. (Which it sounds like you are, unlike many individual owners.)

I agree with you, for sure, that you shouldn't need to be supporting RedCine/Alert/Line for your clients. In fact, I'd argue that those programs shouldn't be used by the clients at all. Or more accurately - the client accepts the headaches that come with the delivery format they've chosen. If they don't have access to Scratch (studio-sized), or have the patience to work out the kinks in FCP (indie-sized), then they shouldn't choose R3D as their delivery format, but instead ask for transcoded quicktimes or a tape. Until R3D matures, that is... which I guess is what you're asking for - Red to push R3D as an accepted shoot-->post delivery format.

My guess is that process will take longer than anyone wants it to. And in the meantime, people will be stuck translating Red footage into the existing pipelines. (And charging for it, presumably.)

One question, though:

Then for the hq-debayer they have top come -another- time.
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If you're going to the trouble of outputting to a 10/12 bit format, why would you not debayer at HQ in the first place?
 
I found a few different options today to deal with a few problems. Because unlike other people who nonchalantly muse about solutions, I actually have a camera and need to figure something out now. (that was for you Skipdivls)

1. Find a post house near you with scratch and talk to them about what they can offer. This option is only really valid for features and most importantly to people near those post houses.

2. you can get that panasonic P2 recorder. I'm not sure of the model number. It's around $13,000. If you can get 720p out of the camera "with timecode" you'll have playback options, dailies options, and editing options with no transcoding necessary. Obviously in the editing case you'll have to figure out how to conform, but I'll leave that dilemma to someone who knows more about it than I.

3. Use Redcine for everything and then kill yourself. Wait. I got that wrong. Kill yourself first, that way you don't have to deal with Redcine! :pinch:
 
What happens after Red file input?

What happens after Red file input?

Now I'm really confused. My camera, 2258, is due sometime in May and I think by then the RedCine/Alert issues will be worked out. But what I'm not perfectly clear on is what happens after I get the raw files into RedCine/Alert. I'm not talking about QT proxy files. I understand that files from the hard drive or CF cards go into RedCine/Alert for processing and take selection. I know that there is a rendering process for converting the files into ProRes or ? before editing in FCP. Is this a potential bottleneck? If this rendering process is a lot longer than real time, then that could be a big problem for me. I have a four core MacPro Intel machine.

I just shot a commercial, five versions, for a client. Put all the footage in my machine last night and had rough cuts after lunch today for the client. The raw footage was about one and a half hours. If this was a Red project, I could live with rendering overnight in this particular case. If I were to start in the morning with file input I would need to be editing by lunch time. Is this scenario possible now?
 
Well hopefully RED will open up their code when it's ready and either write plugins for the major NLEs (not ONLY for FCP...hint,hint...) to use native files or maybe another company like Cineform or DVFilms will.... I just hope it doesn't take for ever....
 
"Or offer a redcine deluxe for some golddollars"...

I would pay for a stable usable software that is cross platform!
 
Bob,

I have the same question, how long does it take to render out the footage? I have read as long as 25-1. In my experiments this weekend, a nine second raw clip took 8 minutes to render out on my 2.3ghz MacBook Pro. My dual 3.2 8 core Mac Pro delivers next week. I will be curious to see how much time is cut with the faster machine. Needless to say, it's not uncommon to shoot 2-3 hours of material in one day. Render out times are scary, but more frightful is Red Cine being unreliable. Like you, I make commercials and time is always short. I need to know I can depend on the software, otherwise the camera just becomes a brick.
 
Guys, over the next 3 to 4 weeks I'll be dedicating a lot of time to the post workflow. I'll be trying all of the indie solutions (Don't have Scratch yet), and I'll be starting a blog that documents the progress. Then I'll be heading to NAB to see where we go next. Have faith guys, there are people working with Red footage on a daily basis, and although there may be workarounds at the moment, eventually this will all get smoothed out and we'll have some solid Red best practices available.

I'll post a link to the blog when it's available.

Steve
 
Steve,

Look forward to the blog. Thanks for you input.
 
Bob,

FCP can edit with RED QT proxies right now. A production house in Hawaii is shooting REDCode RAW, Editing with QT proxies, using a script to conform an FCP XML back to REDCine, exporting to format of choice, optional final CC in tool of choice.

That's working right now. No transcoding of your entire shoot. Just a final render of the source footage.

Michael
 
My impression has always been that Redcine should be at the end of the post-production chain as an inexpensive DI system for people, not as a file transfer and one light starting point.
This is what I'd like to be able to do, speaking from an indi film producer's p.o.v
a. shoot in 4k.
b. take qt and/or r3d pointer files and import them straight into whatever editing platform we're using
c. have a cross platform RC Curve plugin that allows for a simple low rez colour grading so that offlining will be a little warmer than a flat raw file.
d. edit the project
e. take the edl, merge it with the 4k pointer QT file, and plug that into RC (or any other finishing tool) for a 'simpler' CC and finishing pass.
f. export a final product

Taking files and processing them to be read by an editing system is a step that should be eliminated as soon as possible. I feel like the post process right now is either the expensive way or the littered with broken glass way. Not a good choice for indi filmmakers or indi producers, who will both champion the use of and be the foundation of the Red camera's success.
There's no reason why RC should not be 'scratch light', in terms of colour grading and a simple conform.
I really don't think that this is unreasonable, and although I'm no programmer, I get the idea this shouldn't be that hard (forgive me if i'm wrong on that) I get the feeling though, that Red is gathering it's energy for NAB, and that any software fix etc, is all just temporary to get people through. Even if things open up at/right after NAB, there will still be a lag time of at least six months before the post flow settles down. RedCine was released at the end of August, almost six months ago. My concern regarding post is growing, as my camera arrives in 9 weeks, and the post flow issue doesn't seem to be resolving at all.
I don't feel like Red people have really addressed this in detail either, as to what they see as the way forward, and what the timeline is for that way forward. This is a big problem when trying to attract producers to shoot with you. It means that many of us will potentially be doing an awful lot of test shooting......so I'm hopeful that some attention and response can be given to the concerns that have been expressed in this thread.
 
Bob, it takes quite a long time to render out files. I've been immersed in the RC workflow for the past 2 weeks since I got my RED. In the field, on the latest MacBook Pro, minutes can take hours, which is not practical. Hopefully we'll have a clean 1080p output someday and can record to tape for quick turn arounds.
 
This is a great thread. I agree, it seems that a this moment (and I do not believe it will last long based on how RED deals with things) that RED footage always has the word "yeah, but" attached.

By this I mean this.

Shoot 4k and edit what ever you want.

YEAH BUT

In order to do that I need the fastest mac on earth and the code still does not allow editing of proxies without having the RT extreme engine set to unlimited.

Shoot 4k and edit what ever you want.

YEAH BUT

I need to transcode that footage into the REAL world and that means any and every edit system out there.


RED is a very intelligent system. I believe that as code is optimized and as computers get faster the footage will be much easier to access and edit with. REDCODE in FCP is VERY buggy and crashes all the time. It is NOT rt enabled (I am sure this is coming)

Let's face facts, it takes a lot of raw horsepower to decode those r3d files and that is going to take some very good code to optimize.

The upside. IT IS ONLY GOING TO GET BETTER AND BETTER. I agree that a complete system means camera firmware AND the supporting SOFTWARE need to be at AT LEAST VERSION ONE, for this to be called a NON beta camera, for the simple reason that the software is needed as part of the equation.

I am a believer, but people need to understand and inform themselves about the particular limitations of the system as it stands right NOW. I have complete faith that this will improve, but in the meantime you really have to plan and do your homework.

That means a great understanding of the FRONT and BACK end of the workflow.

David
 
Bob Franco said:
Steve,

Look forward to the blog. Thanks for you input.
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Site should be up by tomorrow. When it gets going there will be a constant stream of consciousness going and hopefully some of it will be useful. Although I have shot quite a bit over the years, a lot of my time has been spent in audio and video post. So like many others, I'm looking to bridge that gap between production and post. The best way to do that is lots of testing, both on the testing block and out in simulated real world situations. I won't be holding anything back. You guys will get the good with the bad. If I shoot something really poorly, I'll post it and explain what I did wrong, and how to avoid my mistakes.

Edit: www.redfilmmaker.com
Steve
 
I think we're beyond asking for extra features in Redcine. I don't think Red has any intention to add anything more to it. They might even have a deal with scratch, who made Redcine, to not enable any more features.

Bob. Forget about doing the same workflow you've been doing. It ain't gonna happen with the Red in the near future. Transcode times are around 50-60 to 1 real time, at least with a fully decked out macbook pro. I haven't heard much better for transcode times with 8core computers. As similar as it is to the P2 workflow it's not the same on the post end at all. Don't make assumptions based on the hype here or on your own experience. Everything about red is different.

If you want footage now, figure out how to record your 720p output because that's all you're going to have for a while. The good news is the quality of the output is much better than it used to be.
 
SF Geek said:
I think we're beyond asking for extra features in Redcine.
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Hmm why?

I think that Red should supply the users with a simple and robust way of working with the files that the camera generates. A basic edl, and a seamless transition between 4k and 1k files for the purposes of offlining and onlining would be the basics from my perspective. We're not asking for a ferrari, rather a toyota diesel landcruiser for the workloads that Red files generate.
Redcine should be a simple and effective tool (and i mean this understanding that there are high end suites out there and that things cost money) for the indi's to be able to online their projects in 2k.

Processing these 4k files in order to offline on different NLE's is not part of the future IMO.
David, more thoughts on how well the qt pointer files currently work in FCP? I remember that the video card fried when you were about to demo, so I never got a chance to see how well this did or didn't perform.
 
thinkbug said:
Bob, it takes quite a long time to render out files. I've been immersed in the RC workflow for the past 2 weeks since I got my RED. In the field, on the latest MacBook Pro, minutes can take hours, which is not practical. Hopefully we'll have a clean 1080p output someday and can record to tape for quick turn arounds.
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I sure hope they enable 1080P output real soon as well for the same reason!! I never understood why it was limited to 720P to begin with?? was 720P that much easier to implement over 1080P????
 
I think 1920x1080 (1080P size) - full frame output from the camera in raw format would be fantastic. It would cut the rendering times and still be vastly superior to standard 1080P output from other cameras. I think it's the 4K files that are causing the bottlenecks.
 
We should start a new thread asking for ETA on 1080P output :-)
 
RED, can you chime in on this? :help:

A lot of us are in smaller markets where we're going to get just one chance to sell the RED and it's workflow to our clients. We want to be sure that their first experience isn't a nightmare...
 
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