A couple of questions re. Red Weapon

[Marcel Zyskind]

Hi there,

I hope you don't mind a few questions. I'm working on a big commercial in Prague and we will most likely shoot on Red. I've shot a lot of Red Epic, but not on the newer Weapon cameras.

Are all Red Weapon 6K/8K cameras Helium? Or is there a Red Weapon and Red Weapon Helium? Which one is rated 1280?

Is there a difference in sensor quality between the 6K and 8K cameras or is it "just" a difference in resolution?

Are the frame rates different in anamorphic mode and spherical mode? I can only find different frame rates relating to resolution in tech specs.

When shooting high speed on the Helium is there a recommended oplf?

Many thanks
Marcel

 

[Michael Tiemann]

Hi there,

I hope you don't mind a few questions. I'm working on a big commercial in Prague and we will most likely shoot on Red. I've shot a lot of Red Epic, but not on the newer Weapon cameras.

Are all Red Weapon 6K/8K cameras Helium? Or is there a Red Weapon and Red Weapon Helium? Which one is rated 1280?

Weapon Mg (225 MB/s), Woven (300 MB/s), and Forged (300MB/s) are all 6K. (We can ignore the handful of Weapon cameras upgraded to VistaVision 8K.) Scarlet-W is 5K, and has 2x the data rate (140MB/s vs. 70 MB/s) of SCARLET-X (Dragon) and -MX (Mysterium). The Weapon sensor's noise levels are approximately equivalent to shooting first-gen DSMC DRAGON one stop more open. If you like DRAGON at ISO 640, you'll love WEAPON at 1280. There are numerous threads on REDUSER.net right now about rating the camera, due in part to a camera test published on NoFilmSchool comparing Alexa to Helium. That test ignored several year's worth of knowledge about how to rate and expose RED sensors, leading to very erroneous conclusions. If you have shot lots of EPIC DRAGON, then you are going to love WEAPON at the same settings. If you always wished you had a stop more sensitivity for your DRAGON, then it's there at essentially no penalty.

Is there a difference in sensor quality between the 6K and 8K cameras or is it "just" a difference in resolution?

There are several differences between the 6K DRAGON and 8K Helium. DRAGON pixels are larger, Helium are smaller. Helium is far more sensitive to light, which also means that it clips highlights sooner WITH IDENTICAL LIGHT INPUT. DRAGON appears to have slightly more DR (based on Xyla chart). Helium has far less shadow noise, and IPP2 is sharper, not only because of resolution, but also differences in debayer algorithm. There are many on this list who are upgrading their WEAPONs to EPIC-W, and many who are not. Both offer outstanding quality (much improved compared to EPIC DRAGON and EPIC MX), but neither is the absolute winner in every category. Some people are not upgrading because all things being equal, they'd rather work with 6K image files than 8K image files. A 6K crop of an 8K sensor has less shallow DOF than a 6k sensor shot at full resolution.[/quote]

Are the frame rates different in anamorphic mode and spherical mode? I can only find different frame rates relating to resolution in tech specs.

All the documentation about frame rates and formats (including anamorphic) are in the Media Operations Guide.

When shooting high speed on the Helium is there a recommended oplf?

Everybody has their favorites. Phil Holland has published some comparisons. The high sensitivity of Helium means you can shoot STH OLPF with less light then LLO OLPF on Weapon Dragon. So it really is a question of color choice/preference. Some prefer LLO for their purposes. Others STD. If you are shooting a big commercial, I'd get all three and test!

 

[Nick Morrison]

Hi there,

I hope you don't mind a few questions. I'm working on a big commercial in Prague and we will most likely shoot on Red. I've shot a lot of Red Epic, but not on the newer Weapon cameras.

Are all Red Weapon 6K/8K cameras Helium? Or is there a Red Weapon and Red Weapon Helium? Which one is rated 1280?

Is there a difference in sensor quality between the 6K and 8K cameras or is it "just" a difference in resolution?

Are the frame rates different in anamorphic mode and spherical mode? I can only find different frame rates relating to resolution in tech specs.

When shooting high speed on the Helium is there a recommended oplf?

Many thanks
Marcel

Marcel, there's two flavors of Weapon. Weapon 6K Dragon, and Weapon 8K Helium.

The bodies look the same, but the sensors are radically different.

Weapon Dragon 6K has more DR, less data, and a larger FOV at high speed (at 4K it's close to Academy). It's a mature platform. With Lowlight OLPF you can easily shoot it at 2000 ISO.

Weapon Helium 8K is higher resolution, and is slowly coming into it's own. It has a very tight FOV for highspeed, keep that in mind (at 4K it's essentially shooting Super 16). Def a lowlight king, you can shoot 3200 and higher, esp on Lowlight OLPF (though Standard OLPF probably works great too).

 

[Ugo Del]

Weapon Mg (225 MB/s), Woven (300 MB/s), and Forged (300MB/s) are all 6K. (We can ignore the handful of Weapon cameras upgraded to VistaVision 8K.) Scarlet-W is 5K, and has 2x the data rate (140MB/s vs. 70 MB/s) of SCARLET-X (Dragon) and -MX (Mysterium). The Weapon sensor's noise levels are approximately equivalent to shooting first-gen DSMC DRAGON one stop more open. If you like DRAGON at ISO 640, you'll love WEAPON at 1280. There are numerous threads on REDUSER.net right now about rating the camera, due in part to a camera test published on NoFilmSchool comparing Alexa to Helium. That test ignored several year's worth of knowledge about how to rate and expose RED sensors, leading to very erroneous conclusions. If you have shot lots of EPIC DRAGON, then you are going to love WEAPON at the same settings. If you always wished you had a stop more sensitivity for your DRAGON, then it's there at essentially no penalty.


There are several differences between the 6K DRAGON and 8K Helium. DRAGON pixels are larger, Helium are smaller. Helium is far more sensitive to light, which also means that it clips highlights sooner WITH IDENTICAL LIGHT INPUT. DRAGON appears to have slightly more DR (based on Xyla chart). Helium has far less shadow noise, and IPP2 is sharper, not only because of resolution, but also differences in debayer algorithm. There are many on this list who are upgrading their WEAPONs to EPIC-W, and many who are not. Both offer outstanding quality (much improved compared to EPIC DRAGON and EPIC MX), but neither is the absolute winner in every category. Some people are not upgrading because all things being equal, they'd rather work with 6K image files than 8K image files. A 6K crop of an 8K sensor has less shallow DOF than a 6k sensor shot at full resolution.


All the documentation about frame rates and formats (including anamorphic) are in the Media Operations Guide.


Everybody has their favorites. Phil Holland has published some comparisons. The high sensitivity of Helium means you can shoot STH OLPF with less light then LLO OLPF on Weapon Dragon. So it really is a question of color choice/preference. Some prefer LLO for their purposes. Others STD. If you are shooting a big commercial, I'd get all three and test!

If I were Arri I would put that on all my brochures.
Best answer to "why the hell do most DPs choose the Alexa on big features"? ^^

Edit: please Red, try to make things simpler in the future.

 

[Nick Morrison]

If I were Arri I would put that on all my brochures.
Best answer to "why the hell do most DPs choose the Alexa on big features"? ^^

Edit: please Red, try to make things simpler in the future.

Something to be said about a sensor and OLPF combo that haven't changed in almost a decade.

 

[Marcel Zyskind]

Many thanks guys. Lots of info here to digest.

 

[Tom Gleeson]

Marcel,

If your shooting anamorphic the 8k Heluim offers an advantage as shooting anamorphic on a 16x9 sensor that is not 18mm high means some cropping needs to be done. While the Heluim offers a more light sensitive chip the picture quality is sufficiently similiar I would be comfortable intercutting Dragon and Heluim cameras. If iota a day shot either sensor will serve well but if its a night anamorphic shoot go Heluim. Again with OLPFs the difference between them is subtle and the STD OLPF is a good choice. Little things can add up and its good to understand the basic tech but be wary of getting all your knickers in a knot over all the details.
I think sometimes Red offers too many choices and it takes a real effort to keep on top of everything. Frankly very few "film professionals" I work with are fully up to date with everything Red and that adds FUD and confusion making Arri look good.

 

[Dan Kanes]

If you're doing a lot of high speed - can't hurt to have the Low Light OLPF, or the Standard OLPF with Helium.

If you're doing a lot of high key sun-lighty open airy stuff, I would say Skintone Highlight OLPF will help.

I would probably recommend shooting with DragonColor 1 and Redgamma 4 or Redgamma 2 (depending on your post house)...

If post is savvy, try Log3G10 + RedWideGamutRGB Spaces on the Camera with IPP2 LUTS that give you variable gamma/contrast interpretations of a LOG image - for more details on that see this post:

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...P2-Preview-2&p=1708288&viewfull=1#post1708288

The 3D Luts for transforming LOG3G10 and RWGRGB into viewing space are at the very bottom there and can travel to your post house.

Hope that helps!

 

[Sergio Perez]

Quick and easy:

Red Weapon Dragon:

Red Weapon Dragon Carbon fiber 8K VV - Full Frame Dragon sensor (Vista Vision) at 8K
Top of the line Red Camera. Larger field of view than Helium at 8k and lower. Same frame rates.

Red Weapon Dragon 6K ( Carbon Fiber, Magnesium)- equivalent to Epic Dragon in resolution and frame rates, but with new processors and chips improving the color, compression, low light of the former. Carbon Fiber version allows for slightly less compression than magnesium one. Same performance otherwise.

Scarlet W- 5K . Basically Scarlet Dragon but with better performance similar to what to Epic Dragon Is to Weapon Dragon. Lower frame rates and bigger compression compared to Weapon Dragon 6k.

Red Raven- 4.5K. Its the "Baby Dragon". Lower resolution, fewer frame rates, slightly higher compression.

Weapon Helium

Weapon Helium 8K Carbon- top of the line Red 8K camera with Aps-H sized sensor (1.3x crop) . Sensor size similar to Dragon but different technology, with smaller pixels to fit the same sensor size of Dragon and make it 8K. Allows for 60fps at 8k.

Epic W- Same Helium Sensor as Weapon Helium, but lower frame rates for 8K (30) and 7K (40). Slightly Higher compression.

Helium is Red's newest sensor technology- provides better color and lowlight performance vs Dragon. However, dynamic range is said to be slightly lower than Dragon.

 

[Marcel Zyskind]

Thanks once more guys. I'm leaning towards Weapon Dragon 6K as it will give my a larger fov when shooting hs. There will be a fair amount. Being able to shoot 2000 iso with the lowlight olpf also sounds good.

 

[Michael Tiemann]

Thanks once more guys. I'm leaning towards Weapon Dragon 6K as it will give my a larger fov when shooting hs. There will be a fair amount. Being able to shoot 2000 iso with the lowlight olpf also sounds good.

2000 ISO with LLO OLPF is pushing it on DSMC1. If you light well, you will do fine. If you under-light, you will suffer. If you are shooting on DSMC2 (WEAPON DRAGON), there's more forgiveness because there's less shadow noise.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Highspeed dragon weapon wins, Any other scenario helium wins.
If you are in prauge you probably rent from vantage. I think they can get you a VV ana if you shoot anamorphic then that trumps the other two.

 

[Marcel Zyskind]

Thanks Bjørn. We will most probably shoot spherical.

 

[Björn Benckert]

Thanks Bjørn. We will most probably shoot spherical.

They got the 1.3 hawks in prauge... little bit anamorphic never hurt

 

[Mike Quill]

And this post perfectly captures why Red's current camera offerings are a total mess! SAD!!

 

[Björn Benckert]

And this post perfectly captures why Red's current camera offerings are a total mess! SAD!!

? Don't understand. Even though some Red cameras are better than other red cameras that does not mean that they are all bad. On the contrary no matter which one you pick, you need a pretty good excuse as a DP if the result is not rater good, especially compared to other cameras out there. A red one would do fine I think.

 

[Mike Quill]

? Don't understand. Even though some Red cameras are better than other red cameras that does not mean that they are all bad. On the contrary no matter which one you pick, you need a pretty good excuse as a DP if the result is not rater good, especially compared to other cameras out there. A red one would do fine I think.

I agree with this. I just think Red's camera body/sensor releases since Epic Dragon have been a confusing cluster fuck. They should have just released one damn camera.

 

[Sergio Perez]

I agree with this. I just think Red's camera body/sensor releases since Epic Dragon have been a confusing cluster fuck. They should have just released one damn camera.

I respectfuly disagree.

Each single Red camera model is revolutionary at its specific price point.

They all intercut well, can be used in different applications.

They also provide access to individuals aiming at producing great images that dont have the udget for one high end model.

Arri Also has their collection of different Alexas, not only the mini, but the studio, the xt, the uhd capable, the original ones, etc etc.

The difference is mainly Red has cameras with 2 sensors vs Arri with only 1 sensor.

What I would say would need improvement is the naming convention. The offerings are amazing and completely justified.