8K CF Weapon Sensor Upgrade

[Vincent Accardi]

Any word yet on fps for 8K sensor? and what it would be down the line 6k, 5k, 4k etc... with upgrading to 8K. This is something some people would love to know before taking the 8K plunge.

Thank you!

 

[Nick Morrison]

Any word yet on fps for 8K sensor? and what it would be down the line 6k, 5k, 4k etc... with upgrading to 8K. This is something some people would love to know before taking the 8K plunge.

Thank you!

60fps at 8K full sensor.
75fps at 8K WS
(I believe...)

Not sure what that translates to down the chain....that's a great question.

But Jarred has hinted Dragon sensor can only handle a certain amount of high speed, so Vista Vision may not necessarily address that. It may simply just big a "bigger" sensor, not necessarily a faster/high speed one.

That said..Carbon clearly can handle more data, so I'm assuming the compression rates are better, especially for slow-mo (both on 6K and 8K Carbon).

That's certainly a big deal for folks shooting highspeed...

 

[Maik Müller]

I think a lower cost 8k weapon that only shoots stills burst to cf cards would maybe interest some people.

A lower cost 8k Weapon would make a lot of people happy, a Scarlet-specced version with 8k stills and, lets say, 6k-motion even more... No doubt about it.
As past has told us, RED is starting with the highest tier models and later adds the lower-cost versions. EPIC-M was first, then EPIC-X and later Scarlet-X (announced in Nov 2011 - not at NAB2011). I am pretty sure the Weapon family will grow, MG and CF are just the beginning. We will see where the VV-sensor will find its place when those FF35 and F65-options arrive or when RED is cooking those VV-beauties in masses.

Nobody said there will never be a AL-version, and nobody said the Scarlet-idea is dead. I have still hope for a Scarlet-Weapon.

You talked about a 8k stills only camera and CF-cards? Hmmm, seriously? Dragon is fantastic, Dragon at 8k is a dream for stills, but such a camera would have a difficult stand against Canon's 5Ds(R) and MF-offerings like the Pentax 645z.

 

[Lee Saxon]

because that would require a new pixel design... this is simply dragon scaled up to 8K

Not unless they insisted on hitting 8K / 35MP exactly. Dragon scaled up to 38x20.04 would've been 7.6K / 30.5MP, which is plenty.

 

[Charles Bergquist]

Any word yet on fps for 8K sensor? and what it would be down the line 6k, 5k, 4k etc... with upgrading to 8K. This is something some people would love to know before taking the 8K plunge.

Thank you!

Based on previous sensor upgrades and the new processing in Weapon specs, the framerates downstream of 8K will stay the same. It'd be a pleasant surprise if it went higher though, but I think you'd be sacrificing compression at that point.

 

[vincent kardasik]

NAB price for the upgrade is $10k additional to Weapon CF or Weapon CF upgrade during NAB only. Upgrade Price when 8K ships at end of the year will be $20k.

These past 48 hours I had answers to all my questions thanks to you Jarred and also to other Redusers.
I clearly see the interest in Weapon and CF Weapon and I know I will need those cameras for many reason whatever it costs me in terms of money.
I'm also excited about VV, really and I fully see myself and my team shooting with that 8K Weapon next year or later.
So far my business is going well but upgrading from Epic-M Dragon to Weapon VV represents a bigger investment than I was expecting and 4 days is a short window to be sure I have everything needed to do this now...
But in a way if I hesitate too much I will have to pay $20K when I'll be ready.
All along these threads, I mentioned high frame rates, DR and lower compression but right now my only wish regarding this camera is that we'll have more time to decide if we want to upgrade to VV and still benefit of the $10K price which is such a great opportunity.

 

[Vincent Accardi]

60fps at 8K full sensor.
75fps at 8K WS
(I believe...)

Not sure what that translates to down the chain....that's a great question.

But Jarred has hinted Dragon sensor can only handle a certain amount of high speed, so Vista Vision may not necessarily address that. It may simply just big a "bigger" sensor, not necessarily a faster/high speed one.

That said..Carbon clearly can handle more data, so I'm assuming the compression rates are better, especially for slow-mo (both on 6K and 8K Carbon).

That's certainly a big deal for folks shooting highspeed...

Thanks Nick.

 

[Antony Newman]

Lee.

If you plot the shape of the where a 36x24 FF lens circle reaches inside the VV - you get a rectangle with rounded corners.
This allows a (for example) pretty large 6k rectangle for reframed extraction or stabilisation.

At the 2.4:1 side - it also give you ~8k horizontally (within the 36x24 FF lens circle).
(speculation) With some lenses having 1mm or more usable beyond this circle, or an even wider format - you can squeeze even more out.

AJ

<snip> this sensor pushes well outside the 43.3dia FF35 image circle that so many lenses use, but isn't nearly big enough to make good use of a larger format (even 645) lens. Why do that, when the bigger the sensor the higher the cost? (for anyone wondering, 38x20.04 would've fit perfectly assuming we stuck with the 1.896 aspect ratio).<snip>

 

[Zeb B]

60fps at 8K full sensor.
75fps at 8K WS
(I believe...)

Not sure what that translates to down the chain....that's a great question.

But Jarred has hinted Dragon sensor can only handle a certain amount of high speed, so Vista Vision may not necessarily address that. It may simply just big a "bigger" sensor, not necessarily a faster/high speed one.

That said..Carbon clearly can handle more data, so I'm assuming the compression rates are better, especially for slow-mo (both on 6K and 8K Carbon).

That's certainly a big deal for folks shooting highspeed...

A logical but perhaps wrong assumption. If the Sensor is the limiting factor then bigger bandwidth and faster cards do nothing for increasing FPS or lowering Compression. I'm thinking that the CF Weapon increased pipeline is optimized to handle future 8K data flow - so will not increase FPS at 4K this summer. Perhaps RED has done all it can do to hotrod the Dragon sensor. Not the worst news. The 8K sensor maybe is just a scaled up version of 6K Dragon so we are seeing into the future with the current sensor.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

What I think: If not higher fps, then lower compression at the same fps,

But gee. This is the guessing game
Compression takes it's toll to as to horsepower.

 

[Joe Ogiba]

A lower cost 8k Weapon would make a lot of people happy, a Scarlet-specced version with 8k stills and, lets say, 6k-motion even more... No doubt about it.
As past has told us, RED is starting with the highest tier models and later adds the lower-cost versions. EPIC-M was first, then EPIC-X and later Scarlet-X (announced in Nov 2011 - not at NAB2011). I am pretty sure the Weapon family will grow, MG and CF are just the beginning. We will see where the VV-sensor will find its place when those FF35 and F65-options arrive or when RED is cooking those VV-beauties in masses.

Nobody said there will never be a AL-version, and nobody said the Scarlet-idea is dead. I have still hope for a Scarlet-Weapon.

You talked about a 8k stills only camera and CF-cards? Hmmm, seriously? Dragon is fantastic, Dragon at 8k is a dream for stills, but such a camera would have a difficult stand against Canon's 5Ds(R) and MF-offerings like the Pentax 645z.

But 8k @60 or 75fps does have it's advantages over the 5Ds or 645z.

The 8K sensor will be 40.96 x 21.6mm (larger than the current Dragon sensor and slightly larger than the Vista Vision format) and will be able to shoot 1.896:1 8K (8192 x 4320 pixels) at up to 60fps. It can also shoot a shorter 2.40:1 aspect ratio at up to 75fps.

http://www.dpreview.com/articles/2071668196/red-introduces-8k-sensor-and-weapon-camera

 

[Hugues Dagallier]

Not unless they insisted on hitting 8K / 35MP exactly. Dragon scaled up to 38x20.04 would've been 7.6K / 30.5MP, which is plenty.

Plenty for who ?

7.6K is NOT DCI 8K. By choosing to hit 8.1K, RED make the Weapon Dragon 8K futur-proof (usable for 8K cinema project without upscaling)

Moreover, a wider than 36mm is, in my opinion, a fantastic choice. Most modern FF lens have more room than the standard 43mm image circle needed (I don't even speak about when you crop to 2.39), so you use the maximum of every lens.

If a manufacturer doesn't make ultra-fast medium format lens (which is very likely), even IMAX system cannot reproduce the depth of field you will be able to get with this little wonder.

Put a 50 T0.95 on it, and you will need a 85 T1.6 on a IMAX camera to get the same DOF. Where are the 85 T1.6 IMAX lens ? Hoops, it just doesn't exist. (maybe some cold war aerial soviet lens...).

41mm wide is just superb.

 

[Lee Saxon]

Plenty for who ?

7.6K is NOT DCI 8K. By choosing to hit 8.1K, RED make the Weapon Dragon 8K futur-proof (usable for 8K cinema project without upscaling)

Moreover, a wider than 36mm is, in my opinion, a fantastic choice. Most modern FF lens have more room than the standard 43mm image circle (I don't even speak about when you crop to 2.39), so you use the maximum of every lens.

If a manufacturer doesn't make ultra-fast medium format lens (which is very likely), even IMAX system cannot reproduce the depth of field you will be able to get with this little wonder.

Put a 50 T0.95 on it, and you will need a 85 T1.6 on a IMAX camera to get the same DOF. Where are the 85 T1.6 IMAX lens ? Hoops, it just doesn't exist. (maybe some cold war aerial soviet lens...).

41mm wide is just superb.

None of this much sense. 7.6K (or arguably even 6K) is just as future-proof as 8K. That's all way off. We're barely starting to see 4K presentation, for goodness sake. And while there are lenses (though not as many as you imply and mostly only telephotos) that exceed 43.3mm, I doubt you'll find many that reach the 46.4mm required to cover 40.96x21.6. And the difference in depth of field between a particular lens on a 38mm or even 36mm sensor and the equivalent (which would be, what, 1-2mm different at most?) on a 41mm sensor would be completely invisible.

Lee.

If you plot the shape of the where a 36x24 FF lens circle reaches inside the VV - you get a rectangle with rounded corners.
This allows a (for example) pretty large 6k rectangle for reframed extraction or stabilisation.

At the 2.4:1 side - it also give you ~8k horizontally (within the 36x24 FF lens circle).
(speculation) With some lenses having 1mm or more usable beyond this circle, or an even wider format - you can squeeze even more out.

The idea of shooting at 8K, having to crop some of the corners (how much varying by lens), and using the rest for reframing, stabilization, or downsampling to 6K would make sense.

You're a little off about 2.4:1, though. That still doesn't fit inside 43.3, you'd need about 44.5.

 

[Hugues Dagallier]

None of this much sense. 7.6K (or arguably even 6K) is just as future-proof as 8K. That's all way off. We're barely starting to see 4K presentation, for goodness sake. And while there are lenses (though not as many as you imply and mostly only telephotos) that exceed 43.3mm, you're not going to find many that reach the 46.4mm required to cover 40.96x21.6. And the difference in depth of field between a particular lens on a 38mm or even 36mm sensor and the equivalent (which would be, what, 1-2mm different at most?) on a 41mm sensor would be completely invisible.

Sorry, it makes sense.
7.6K or 6K is not as future-proof as DCI 8K. It's like to say 3.8K or 3K is OK for DCI 4K finish. I don't agree, a lot of people will NOT agree. World moves toward 8K. 4K is a step. Just a step. (NHK will agree with me).

Check Otus Primes, and check their image circle. I think they cover more than 43. Moreover, re-cacultate with a 2.39 crop for example...

5mm wide difference is not invisible. Not flagrant, but not invisible.

Finally, check the NAB LENS post. Manufacturers seems very interested about this sensor. You are going to see some nice FF lens option, FF lens that covers 41mm wide...

 

[Hugues Dagallier]

None of this much sense. 7.6K (or arguably even 6K) is just as future-proof as 8K. That's all way off. We're barely starting to see 4K presentation, for goodness sake. And while there are lenses (though not as many as you imply and mostly only telephotos) that exceed 43.3mm, I doubt you'll find many that reach the 46.4mm required to cover 40.96x21.6. And the difference in depth of field between a particular lens on a 38mm or even 36mm sensor and the equivalent (which would be, what, 1-2mm different at most?) on a 41mm sensor would be completely invisible.



The idea of shooting at 8K, having to crop some of the corners (how much varying by lens), and using the rest for reframing, stabilization, or downsampling to 6K would make sense.

You're a little off about 2.4:1, though. That still doesn't fit inside 43.3, you'd need about 44.5.

Finishing at 6K ? Now that doesn't make much sense.

4K & 8K are official standard. Not 6K.

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

And yet Netflix finished the latest season of House of Cards at 6K and is pushing forward with 6K masters where available/ applicable. They will move to 8K as cameras and other infrastructure allows. While 4K and 8K, and various flavors or variations of those, are acceptable or defined broadcast or distribution formats, there are no specific rules for mastering. A 6K master now is more than capable of being used to generate 4K and lower distribution. It could arguably make reasonably decent images when sent to an 8K display system, at least better than 4K will in most cases. At least in terms of resolution/ detail.

Of course, HoC was also shot in 6K, so that played a role. And various production companies or studios will have their own take on this. Coming from someone like Netflix, it makes sense to acquire and master in the highest resolution they can. It requires much less storage to stream their content from a single high-resolution master than it does to maintain separate SD, HD, 4K, etc.. masters for all and aiming high now means less re-working down the road or that something will hold up better, as in more future-proof. But I think that reaching 4K distribution has already served as a landmark of sorts, being the equivalent of 35mm film. It's not like in 35 years from now people are going to look at 4K or all the content scanned from film and think it looks like crap. It's just not going to have the microscopic, pin-sharp detail we'll see with 8K, 12K and beyond.

 

[Brent Carter]

NAB price for the upgrade is $10k additional to Weapon CF or Weapon CF upgrade during NAB only. Upgrade Price when 8K ships at end of the year will be $20k.

Clarification/Confirmation... Since a lot of you asked me today at NAB. The $10,000 8K upgrade is a pre-order, not just a deposit with more due later. Meaning, you are going to pay a TOTAL of $10,000 for the 8K upgrade if you order between now and EOD Thu PT. After that, the price will go up, as Jarred stated.

 

[Hugues Dagallier]

And yet Netflix finished the latest season of House of Cards at 6K and is pushing forward with 6K masters where available/ applicable. They will move to 8K as cameras and other infrastructure allows. While 4K and 8K, and various flavors or variations of those, are acceptable or defined broadcast or distribution formats, there are no specific rules for mastering. A 6K master now is more than capable of being used to generate 4K and lower distribution. It could arguably make reasonably decent images when sent to an 8K display system, at least better than 4K will in most cases. At least in terms of resolution/ detail.

I agree that 6K is superb for finishing at 4K, but that's not the point.

It's like saying that a 3K acquisition can make decent images sent on a 4K system. Yes. Is it ideal ? No. And I think you will agree with me.

Concerning HoC, I don't think that a lot of manufacturers will make non-standard format displays (There are just 2 5K MONITORS display around here). 8K is coming. They will adopt it very soon. I doubt that a 6K display will be very common, or will just exist. 8K displays, yes, sooner than we think, in my opinion...

 

[Nick Fury]

Clarification/Confirmation... Since a lot of you asked me today at NAB. The $10,000 8K upgrade is a pre-order, not just a deposit with more due later. Meaning, you are going to pay a TOTAL of $10,000 for the 8K upgrade if you order between now and EOD Thu PT. After that, the price will go up, as Jarred stated.

Hi Brent!

YEP! There is a lot of erroneous out there. Even experienced RED end users are having misconceptions. Is a Sticky post in order here

Thank you very much

Fury

 

[Mike Nagel]

Finishing at 6K ? Now that doesn't make much sense.

4K & 8K are official standard. Not 6K.

Love VV, 8K and beyond but obviously an 8K bayer capture won't give u 8K resolution... u have 8K pixel.

Better then 7.x K but when u factor in available lenses and then final perceived difference of an 8K bayer capture with a an okay lens (not many options) or a 7.x K capture with a very good lens (FF, more options) that is then slightly upscaled, u may not see any difference at all, or lose out.

Also, a FF cine glass set with same aperture across all focal lengths (that is also visually matched between lenses) may just be way less headache in post and more importantly on-set workflow...