8K CF Weapon Sensor Upgrade

[Brad Grimm]

Dynamic range, colors and ISO sensitivity will be obsolete. Anyone still using Red M images shot in 2008? I guess not many....
Bayer could be ditched in favor for organic sensors or foveon layered sensors. Who knows what is coming.

We don't know whats coming, thats the point. But what we DO know is that RED is giving us full frame, 8K this year.... fingers crossed

 

[Christoffer Glans]

I think the end of resolution will be like 10K or 12K for downrez to 8K output. Right now, Weapon 8K is 8K directly, no downconverting, so to benefit from the best sharpness and colors the real resolution need to go a bit higher. But as far as resolution go, I don't think anything will ever need to be higher than 8K. After that the limits of the human eye is at it's end and even with 12K you can downrez to 10K if you want. But I really want this to stop right now, 8K (10-12K acquisition) is enough and we need developers to focus on other things like low light performance (clean images on high ISO) even better color handling and more organic (less stoboscopic) motion blur.

I think resolution hunts need to slow down now, we need to continue improving other things about sensor technology. We forget to remember how heavy the post production will be for 8K media, how a larger production need to be able to handle all that data. Improvement in color, noise and motion blur isn't going to demand more of post production, but more resolution will. If anything improvements in color, noise and motion blur will actually ease up post production instead. With better motion blur you don't have to worry in the edit about camera pans not working, with better colors you don't need as much color grading to "get things right" and with cleaner images you don't need to do noise reduction passes and you get cleaner greenscreens and VFX tracking abilites.

I would really want to see that the next sensor technology doesn't do a jump to higher resolution but instead try to improve on all of these things instead. That might also enable our Epic Dragons to be upgraded because we might not need more processing power (perhaps even less, based on the technology).

 

[Dunkan Wolf]

We don't know whats coming, thats the point. But what we DO know is that RED is giving us full frame, 8K this year.... fingers crossed

If only the price was a little lower... sigh. I'm in love with 8K Weapon. But my wallet isn't.

 

[vincent kardasik]

FPS is limited by both the sensor and the processing... not just the processing. Weapon uses the same 6K Dragon sensor that is the bottleneck.

Making a sensor with High FPS has a Sensitivity ( Dynamic ) range penalty that is just too large right now. You see it with the Phantoms which sit around 10 stops of dynamic range.

The Weapon CF 8K Vista Vision is NOT a new generation sensor. Neither are the two 6K versions of the Weapon.

Just found that in two threads so if I understand well the high speed frame rate thing is linked to the sensor spec.
I guess it replies to my question below and we won't see any improvement in terms of high speed shooting but more latitude, less compression and of course more resolution with Weapon 8K.
Am I right or is it too soon to speculate?
You know where I'm going...
I'd love to shoot in VV with the Dragon latitude and quality but I'd also love to shoot more than 200 FPS in, let's say, 4 or 5K.
Will the CF Weapon 8K be able to also do that?

Jarred,
I know it's probably too early to talk about specs but when the 8K upgrade will be ready, can we expect higher frame rates at 6K, 5K and 4K for example?

 

[David Ellison]

Never mind...

 

[Jeff McCoy]

Big question for Jarred...

For someone like me- really wanting the 8K, but realizing how expensive the upgrade path is, would it be possible to not take delivery on the Sidekick, redvolt XL module, or weapon top handle- to help bring down the cost?

Also, will there be any way to "upgrade" my 7" touch LCD to weapon touch LCD?

Thank you!! I can't wait to shoot with a weapon!

 

[Zeb B]

Asked this of Phil in small tributary thread but since time is short and I'm traveling this week I would like to get a conclusion to my top buyer decision point:

From what I understand the limiting factor to higher frames on Dragon vs. Weapon is the sensor itself - which is the same from Scarlet to Weapon.

Physics: You can't have High Dynamic Range, High ISO, High Bit Depth, Low Compression and High Frame Rates. You have to choose and prioritize from #1 to #5 . . . can't have it all. Phantom is optimized for High Frame Rate so you have a 10 Stop Dynamic Range.

That all being said please explain how Weapon can, even in theory (and therefore possible in future updates), exceed Dragon-M in increased Frame Rates with Lower Compression. This is a major buying decision point for me.

 

[Antony Newman]

Will the existing Canon mount work on on a VV sensor .. and allow 8k 2.4:1 with canon FF glass? (ie ~7980 pix across)

AJ

 

[Gunleik Groven]

Asked this of Phil in small tributary thread but since time is short and I'm traveling this week I would like to get a conclusion to my top buyer decision point:

From what I understand the limiting factor to higher frames on Dragon v. Weapon is the sensor itself - which is the same from Scarlet to Weapon.

Physics: You can't have High Dynamic Range, High ISO, High Bit Depth, Low Compression and High Frame Rates. You have to choose and prioritize from #1 to #5 . . . can't have it all. Phantom is optimized for High Frame Rate so you have a 10 Stop Dynamic Range.

That all being said please explain how Weapon can, even in theory (and therefore possible in future updates), exceed Dragon-M in increased Frame Rates with Lower Compression. This is a major buying decision point for me.

I have no insider info. But if that wasn't the main point of increased bandwith, i cannot really see the point.

 

[Ulf Krentz]

I´d like to see an aluminum 8K option as well, as this CF version unfortunately is out of an economically reasonable range for me as well. 8K for motion is beyond my needs but sounds good for pulling stills. The physical larger sensor size and the new body design is really teasing - this combination of 8K with the CF package is killing it, what a pity.

 

[Filip Orlandic]

Indeed Filip .
U r so wright.
We have somebody who rents them that we know. Look for www.eastrentals.com
So you know

Thanks

There are enough FF35/65mm lenses...

Low budget:
Canon K35
Canon CN-E
Schneider Xenon
Zeiss CZ (3 Zooms)
Zeiss CP2
Van Diemen Leica !!!!!!

Mid/Big budget:
Possible new Arri/Zeiss lenses for ARRI 2016 FF35 camera
or modification for Master Primes and Ultra Primes

Ultra Big budget:
Panavision Primo 70
Panavision 65 lenses
Arri Prime 65 lenses
Hawk Max (coming)

 

[Jeffery Anderson]

IMHO, The Weapon is really geared towards specific need on set for Feature Films and Narrative TV, so the high-end price tag is really low considering what you're getting for the price.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

IMHO, The Weapon is really geared towards specific need on set for Feature Films and Narrative TV, so the high-end price tag is really low considering what you're getting for the price.

Yes this is exactly the point, I think. Weapon is finally a RED cam with some pretty obvious and simple-working workflows and features for these kind of productions (without a ton of modifying on your own), and I think it is really great that RED is finally addressing this heads on.

 

[Jeffery Anderson]

Yes this is exactly the point, I think. Weapon is finally a RED cam with some pretty obvious and simple-working workflows and features for these kind of productions (without a ton of modifying on your own), and I think it is really great that RED is finally addressing this heads on.

coming from a AC background, I can see the benefits of these mastercopies(R3D + Prores) to shorten the on set workflow for DITs and production in general.

For guys like Soderbergh, that are more hands on, you can you simplify the process and give the Cinematographer more control over the output and final presentation.

Basically, capture it in camera...

 

[Gunleik Groven]

coming from a AC background, I can see the benefits of these mastercopies(R3D + Prores) to shorten the on set workflow for DITs and production in general.

For guys like Soderbergh, that are more hands on, you can you simplify the process and give the Cinematographer more control over the output and final presentation.

Basically, capture it in camera...

As an AC, I guess you can appreciate contacts you actually can reach with normal fingers, LCD/EVF contacts on the body, ability to flip and mirror on all monitors, integrated top-chheseplate and the AC sidepanel and a few of the other things now offered, too.

I think RED has built a camera to be used.

 

[Lee Saxon]

Okay so I sat down and drew a little diagram because the math looked odd to me...I was right, this sensor pushes well outside the 43.3dia FF35 image circle that so many lenses use, but isn't nearly big enough to make good use of a larger format (even 645) lens. Why do that, when the bigger the sensor the higher the cost? (for anyone wondering, 38x20.04 would've fit perfectly assuming we stuck with the 1.896 aspect ratio).

Personally I wish they'd gone with 38x24, which would've allowed that 38x20.04 crop as well as a 36x24 to show a little love to the sorely neglected S in DSMC.

 

[David Battistella]

I think a lower cost 8k weapon that only shoots stills burst to cf cards would maybe interest some people.

 

[Patrick Grossien]

Yeah, but we had a pretty good roadmap back then; we knew the deal more clearly.

It does beg the question: what of Scarlet? Epic/Scarlet MX are EOL now. Where's the ~$10K or ~$14k Weapon, that maxes out at maybe 6K 24fps, but gets the Scarlet market people on that budget into the ongoing Weapon ecosystem of accessories etc?

Where's the Scarlet MX replacement? Where's Weapon Scarlet?

R1 -> R1 MX -> Epic MX -> Epic Dragon -> Weapon

Scarlet MX -> Scarlet Dragon -> ????

(I have no horse in this race btw, I just sold my Scarlet!)

Mike

Mike, that's exactly what I was talking about. We don't know yet what's what but it will definitely be coming. Ok, I'm pretty certain.
And really the whole Epic/Scarlet roadmap we had back then - if you compare to what we have now, a lot has changed. But it changed over time with more and more announcements. As the JJ double trouble team always likes to point out: they are just getting started. So a lot changes over and over again and on top of that - everyone else is listening. So they closed the doors on the information channel and it will definitely not open back up again.

But I said it beforehand else today: a clearer line up announcement at the point when they were telling us to rather switch to dragon, with a power vs price point axis might have cleared up the situation beforehand. Then again: I expected it to be similar to what it is now with the information that was given (on the other hand I still had some hopes that a "scarlet type weapon" might be in the mix somewhere.)

 

[Patrick Grossien]

I think a lower cost 8k weapon that only shoots stills burst to cf cards would maybe interest some people.

Not only maybe and not only some
I know quite a few stills people who'd love to grab one.

I was still hoping for the 36x24 FF35 Scarlet somewhere along the road. But since the 8K Dragon sensor is priced at $20K I guess this will never happen or at least not for a long time.

 

[Dunkan Wolf]

Okay so I sat down and drew a little diagram because the math looked odd to me...I was right, this sensor pushes well outside the 43.3dia FF35 image circle that so many lenses use, but isn't nearly big enough to make good use of a larger format (even 645) lens. Why do that, when the bigger the sensor the higher the cost? (for anyone wondering, 38x20.04 would've fit perfectly assuming we stuck with the 1.896 aspect ratio).

Personally I wish they'd gone with 38x24, which would've allowed that 38x20.04 crop as well as a 36x24 to show a little love to the sorely neglected S in DSMC.

because that would require a new pixel design... this is simply dragon scaled up to 8K