8K CF Weapon Sensor Upgrade

[Lee Saxon]

Mike you are comparing Aluminum Epic Dragon to Carbon Epic Dragon. The Weapon is Magnesium vs Carbon. The price difference is not in the materials. The majority of the difference in price is in the electronics between the MG and Carbon bodies. 8K works just fine in the magnesium bodies, I have one at NAB that I have been shooting with. If you hate CF for whatever reason, I can build you a 8K MG Weapon but the cost is going to be about the same.

Magnesium costing about the same as Carbon makes sense to me, but the model differentiation strategy behind that choice doesn't.

The only difference in Aluminum Epic and Carbon Epic was the body. It was a choice between "cheap but heavy" and "light but expensive." That made sense to me.

Now we've got two different sets of internals (ie two different cameras) AND two different body options...but both are "light but expensive" choices.

So why not both MG or both CF? In what situations would one or the other be preferable? And if those situations are compelling enough to offer the choice, and the cost of either choice is about the same, why tie one to the lower-end Weapon and one to the higher-end rather than offering the "pick your body" approach of Epic?

And why break module compatibility between the DSMC lines? You've mentioned a credit to ease the pain of that change for upgraders, which I think is very nice, but you haven't addressed (that I've seen) why you made the change? I bet there are a ton of Epic and even Scarlet owners (maybe even a majority of them) who would love to have the Base Expander, just to name one example.

 

[Dunkan Wolf]

So this means no real Cine Lenses go with it in order to cover the full sensor ?…only maybe the special IMAX ones or very old real VistaVision? ( apart from the photo lenses) I am confused...

What about CP.2 Zeiss Superspeeds? Aren't they FullFrame?

 

[Phil Holland]

So this means no real Cine Lenses go with it in order to cover the full sensor ?…only maybe the special IMAX ones or very old real VistaVision? ( apart from the photo lenses) I am confused...

"Real". The Zeiss Compact Zooms were designed for this format and are not simply rehoused or modified still lenses. The Schneider Xenon-FF Primes were also from the ground up designed for larger formats like this. The Zeiss CP.2s are quality rehousings of their ZF/ZE primes. Zeiss will also be doing some rehousing of the Otus primes down the line which from the ground up are designed for still and motion. Canon CN-E primes are rehoused and lightly modified (new element/coatings) Canon EF glass. Sigma will be releasing cinema versions of their ART series of primes at some point.

That said. The sky is the limit for VistaVision. You literally have over 60 years of the most compact advanced lens development as well as higher speed/quality primes to cull from. No, we aren't talking Master Prime level for some of the vintage glass. However, there are gems out there.

In the past, back when dinosaurs ruled the earth and I shot on film we used rehoused Nikon, Leica, and Olympus prime lenses to shoot this format. Some even adapted Medium Format glass as well.

I'm doing all those things.

And why break module compatibility between the DSMC lines? I bet there are a ton of Epic and even Scarlet owners (maybe even a majority of them) who would love to have the Base Expander, just to name one example.

Weapon is a major hardware overhaul in reality. Smaller and more powerful modules are now possible. We are all seeing some of the first generation modules at the moment. There's new connectors, new tech, and new "throughput". This one thing I know is a tough one, but DSMC V1 modules are designed based off of 2009/2010 technology for the most part. It's 2015 and Weapon is just a different beast.

 

[Cristian Nicolescu]

Thank you so much Phil… This is what I was afraid too. What are we going to do with our "dinosaur cine industry" in this case where Master Primes and Ultra Primes are the limit ? Was hoping for a miracle
Now coming back to earth… If I got it wright ? What kind of improvement will we get with the 8k sensor from our cine anamorphic lenses ? It should be close to a perfect crop ...

 

[Phil Holland]

Thank you so much Phil… This is what I was afraid too. What are we going to do with our "dinosaur cine industry" in this case where Master Primes and Ultra Primes are the limit ? Was hoping for a miracle
Now coming back to earth… If I got it wright ? What kind of improvement will we get with the 8k sensor from our cine anamorphic lenses ? It should be close to a perfect crop ...

You're going to continue using them.

RED is a multi-format system. If you want to shoot with the S35 "format" 5K on the Dragon sensor is that (Also check out 5.5K HD as that's right in there too). In many cases some S35 primes cover up to 6K, some beyond that even.

VistaVision is another motion picture format that's been around for 60+ years. Used through the 50s, then moderately hibernated, then came back in the 70's for VFX use on things like Star Wars. Since then it's been used for VFX and larger format cinematography. If you look at several recent Christopher Nolan films you are seeing how they choose to use that format occasionally as well.

Anamorphic Imaging. Yes you will be able to shoot "full height" (18.6mm) traditional anamorphic on the Weapon Dragon 8K. However, it's even cooler than that really. The full sensor height is 21.6mm and luckily I've been around a lot of anamorphic glass. Most if not all anamorphic S35 lenses will cover that taller frame.

And for anamorphic shooters remember the vertical resolution here is 4.3K. Your unsqueezed image is about 10K by 4.3K, which is going to be utterly amazing. Or using the simple squash method you will have 4.3K that you can do a lot with. Depends on your workflow.

 

[Cristian Nicolescu]

Thank you so so much for your answer.

What VFX crews for Star Wars, Cristopher Nolan or Paul Thomas Anderson in The Master did was using 65mm glass as far as I read.

Great news about Anamorphic.
Do you think the sensor is ready for a true ( compared to a good at least 6k down converted film scan ) anamorphic desqueeze at least for a 2k DCP projection ?

 

[Phil Holland]

Thank you so so much for your answer.

What VFX crews for Star Wars, Cristopher Nolan or Paul Thomas Anderson in The Master did was using 65mm glass as far as I read.

Great news about Anamorphic.
Do you think the sensor is ready for a true ( compared to a good at least 6k down converted film scan ) anamorphic desqueeze at least for a 2k DCP projection ?

The Master shot 65mm. Nolans films occasionally are using 65mm 5-perf AND VistaVision for photography.

Check out this interesting list of films that have used VistaVision over the years:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_VistaVision_films

Hmm. I need to update that Wiki. There's a few I worked on who aren't on that list.

Dragon right now out resolves a down sampled 6K film scan from a Super 35mm negative from the Northlight 6K scanner.

For those that remember, IMAX was at RED's booth at NAB 2014 last year and they were stating 6K Dragon material was on the same resolving level of 15-perf 70mm IMAX film. 8K will surpass that level of quality.

8K is incredibly ideal for IMAX productions as it pushes things further.

Interestingly enough I can think of a few new high resolution formats that can be explored. There's something appealing to me about a 4.3x4.3K 1:1 aspect ratio image for instance. 3:2 becomes more useful as a motion picture resolution AND stills resolution for those that do both.

Ratios between 1.66, 1.85:1, and 2:1 were commonly explored on VistaVision as well.

 

[Filip Orlandic]

So this means no real Cine Lenses go with it in order to cover the full sensor ?…only maybe the special IMAX ones or very old real VistaVision? ( apart from the photo lenses) I am confused...

Don't forget cine Canon K35 lenses....

 

[Cristian Nicolescu]

A lot of great options….
We need the glass for it and I don't see too many tangible options accepted on a large scale here.
Cine lenses are a slow market… Hard to see what future will bring…maybe u know more.
It would be great if you could share some more

 

[Cristian Nicolescu]

Indeed Filip .
U r so wright.
We have somebody who rents them that we know. Look for www.eastrentals.com
So you know

 

[Lee Saxon]

Zeiss will also be doing some rehousing of the Otus primes down the line which from the ground up are designed for still and motion.

Do you get the feeling that the Otus primes are a test run for the next generation of Master Primes? Or is that just me?

 

[Russ Fill]

Just wondering if anyone else notices that the SSD part of the Weapon is not or does not appear to be CF. I know I had to wait a while for my CF Dragon to get the mini mag SSD part but I wonder if the SSD part on the Weapon is not CF or can't be CF due to some heat requirements or something else.
Would be nice finish to have the CF woven to match the rest of the camera.

 

[Mark Pugh]

Mike you are comparing Aluminum Epic Dragon to Carbon Epic Dragon. The Weapon is Magnesium vs Carbon. The price difference is not in the materials. The majority of the difference in price is in the electronics between the MG and Carbon bodies.

I'm having a lot of trouble working out how this relates to the huge difference in CF and aluminum epic pricing of the last few years, when the internals were identical. Aah If only an aluminum 8k were offered, with this same pricing logic that has applied to Epic in the past. How many ecstatic Red customers would there be this week? How many new Red customers? What the f$$@ is going on around here?

 

[Phil Holland]

Do you get the feeling that the Otus primes are a test run for the next generation of Master Primes? Or is that just me?

In some ways yes and some ways no. Master Primes are still T1.3 at the end of the day and have very high S35 resolving power.

However, the Otus primes would likely land in the T1.6-ish territory and cover a larger format to boot.

The real pricing trick that Zeiss will need to deal with is where the cinema Otus primes will land. And I suspect this will actually put the Ultra Prime price point a bit too close for comfort. But it's too early to tell.

They need a wide or two to flesh out this set for a basic "complete" shooting package. There were 3 focal lengths in discussion initially. Where it goes from here is a hard guess. The development of these primes is slow.

However, Sigma is exploring similar-ish tech and developing a bit faster. The Otus primes still out perform the new ART primes, but only by a smidge. But getting that extra smidge always costs ya.

 

[Dunkan Wolf]

I'm having a lot of trouble working out how this relates to the huge difference in CF and aluminum epic pricing of the last few years, when the internals were identical. Aah If only an aluminum 8k were offered, with this same pricing logic that has applied to Epic in the past. How many ecstatic Red customers would there be this week? How many new Red customers? What the f$$@ is going on around here?

Either Carbon Dragon was seriously overpriced or Magnesium is way more expensive than aluminum.

+1 for 8K alumi!

 

[Lee Saxon]

In some ways yes and some ways no. Master Primes are still T1.3 at the end of the day and have very high S35 resolving power.

However, the Otus primes would likely land in the T1.6-ish territory and cover a larger format to boot.

The real pricing trick that Zeiss will need to deal with is where the cinema Otus primes will land. And I suspect this will actually put the Ultra Prime price point a bit too close for comfort. But it's too early to tell.

True, but if they're forward-thinking they might design the next generation of MP's to cover FF35 which could make T1.3 unfeasible anyway. Perhaps the next generations of MP's and UP's would be the same speed, but with the former FF35 and the latter traditional S35.

 

[Phil Holland]

True, but if they're forward-thinking they might design the next generation of MP's to cover FF35 which could make T1.3 unfeasible anyway. Perhaps the next generations of MP's and UP's would be the same speed, but with the former FF35 and the latter traditional S35.

I don't see a VistaVision+ set of Master Primes or Ultra Primes being made anytime soon.

If they try to utilize the same general design to maintain the T1.3 you would be looking at lenses that were 2 to 3 times the size and weight depending on focal length. Also, elements like this at this size would likely be in the realm of $300K+ for a set.

If they add a converter to allow for larger coverage however that is achievable, but at the cost of a bit of light loss and potentially quality loss. Zeiss isn't the company to usually go in for those shenanigans.

Otus primes are exploring the latest in aspherical elements, rare glass, and rather space age coatings. Several things not found in Ultra Primes and Master Primes. And they perform alarmingly well. They do breath and that's one thing I'd love for them to update a bit if possible before the cinema versions are released.

Who knows though. Maybe these advancements in the last 25 years could lead to a new set of quality speeds and a new design.

With lens development being what it is I tend to only comment on things that are on the horizon of being visible and usable with 1 to 2 years.

Most modern lens manufactures would require 2 years minimum to bring a set of glass to the market. This isn't exactly the easiest stuff to do. Not at all actually. Engineers lose their minds designing glass.

That said, there is likely one or two new bits of lens tech will be seeing within the next 2 years as well. But it's too early to tell if "we" get to see that.

 

[Cristian Nicolescu]

That being said I am afraid the new 8k sensor will be obsolete by than.

 

[Phil Holland]

That being said I am afraid the new 8k sensor will be obsolete by than.

Because of all of the other new 8K cameras available on the market this year?

Huh?

That's a weird statement. Dragon in the majority of categories is currently the top sensor or 2nd top sensor depending on what flavor of ice cream you enjoy.

And actually I think what might be smart for RED down the line is to stick to this general pixel pitch and produce things like frame rate enhancements and "other things" that people can probably think of. But that's likely another 2 years away really as several enhancements need to occur in a variety of areas.

 

[Dunkan Wolf]

Because of all of the other new 8K cameras available on the market this year?

Huh?

That's a weird statement. Dragon in the majority of categories is currently the top sensor or 2nd top sensor depending on what flavor of ice cream you enjoy.

And actually I think what might be smart for RED down the line is to stick to this general pixel pitch and produce things like frame rate enhancements and "other things" that people can probably think of. But that's likely another 2 years away really as several enhancements need to occur in a variety of areas.

Dynamic range, colors and ISO sensitivity will be obsolete. Anyone still using Red M images shot in 2008? I guess not many....
Bayer could be ditched in favor for organic sensors or foveon layered sensors. Who knows what is coming.