8K CF Weapon Sensor Upgrade

[Brian Merlen]

Well the Arri Alexa Mini uses it and is pretty cheap (relatively I mean, like cheap by Arri standards of price). So maybe its just a new industry trend? I agree I'd settle for aluminum any day of the week to save some cash. I'm going to try and swing financing to do the Vista sensor if I can but even if I don't do it now I'll probably eventually buy it even if I miss this program. But yea it is kind of pricy to do so, but so are other similar high end options. The good thing is this black cal stuff, 3d Luts, proxies, all of its really cool stuff, the new Meizer Module if you will? Its great, but its not a "must have" and the real benefit of this upgrade program is the fact the door will remain open...Sure some may get pissed if they miss the window for discounts, but long run I think I still will like to upgrade my Red, no matter...

Dumb dumb dumb.

I'll pay for the power.

I'll pay for the 8K.

I will NOT pay for a fancy schmancy CF body I don't need or want. That CF body material is a substantial cost - look at the price difference between Dragon and Dragon CF, for NO difference in performance. Plus, I work on volcanoes. I won't take a CF body on a volcano, period. You should see the state the CF parts of my Red matte box were in after I took that on a red hot lava shoot!

If this is true, it's a major misstep, and may mark the beginning of the end of my relationship with Red. I'm not wildly enthused by the value of the Weapon upgrade - but not making the 8K sensor and electronics upgrade available in a standard metal body is just dumb and wrong and incomprehensible. Except for a few people juggling ounces in specialist applications, CF isn't needed or wanted. I can't understand why Red have gone this route. CF is great on a race car, but pointless extravagance on a workaday movie camera body.

Mike

 

[antoine carpentier]

I Feel a bit disappointed...
No internal NDs, no high frame rate, no integrate wireless monitoring, nothing really better in pictures quality. The only good news is the vista (could allow a real 4/3 for anamorphique).
I was ready to spend 50k$ for a real game changer but it's not, so I'm gonna keep my money for lenses (summicron!) to complet my epic dragon!

 

[Brian Merlen]

variety is the spice of life i suppose, as the saying goes...i mean the main thing here is dragon (and scarlet dragon) are both still on the market, and are sisters to this new lead model, which has lots of nice features...I love the black cals 3d Luts seem useful, same with prores, lots of useful Meizer Module esque stuff so its value added to the same sensor, same generation. its not like we "have to upgrade"...and the door will remain open minus some small financial incentives to rush now. so though this was unexpected, its also same generation and you don't need to really go for it. i think the feature sets make it pretty valuable though, its like the dragon plus if you will, same line up but way better bells and whistles..

 

[Mike Nagel]

Original horizontal VistaVision 35mm camera film frame.

that was my thought, too ;-)

but they're using same sensor, same pixel pitch and 8K just makes it all larger...

 

[Marc Fisher]

Hi Mike,


Feel you frustration, but see it a bit differently.
Whilst the CF Epic was a big leap in price over the Epic - suspect that very few were made and the fixed cost recovery (incl. R&D) contributed significantly to the price difference. Weapon CF will be produced in much larger numbers so suspect the actual premium to be quite small in the case of weapon - and nothing like the Epic premium for CF. So think the CF finish is a bit of a red herring - it's what's under the bonnet that's quite different between the CF and Mg Weapons. A better analogy would be Epic Vs Scarlet than CF Epic versus Regular Epic based on my humble opinion and the still quite limited info we all have

In terms of your usage and CF not being appropriate - your use is what I would call pretty specialised and therefore an outlier. Volcano shoots !! The rump of the bell curve however probably does prefer CF over Mg all else being equal - so commercially it makes sense for RED to cater for that - and less so for the outliers. That said, given your situation and the fact RED does cater for specialist applications - am sure it is worth having the conversation with RED about re-housing a CF weapon in an Mg body - if that is the real deal killer for you. Am sure something could be worked out unless the internals are physically materially different , which would surprise me.

Regardless, have enjoyed your posts over the years and would be sad to see you retire from RED

All the best, Marc

Dumb dumb dumb.

I'll pay for the power.

I'll pay for the 8K.

I will NOT pay for a fancy schmancy CF body I don't need or want. That CF body material is a substantial cost - look at the price difference between Dragon and Dragon CF, for NO difference in performance. Plus, I work on volcanoes. I won't take a CF body on a volcano, period. You should see the state the CF parts of my Red matte box were in after I took that on a red hot lava shoot!

If this is true, it's a major misstep, and may mark the beginning of the end of my relationship with Red. I'm not wildly enthused by the value of the Weapon upgrade - but not making the 8K sensor and electronics upgrade available in a standard metal body is just dumb and wrong and incomprehensible. Except for a few people juggling ounces in specialist applications, CF isn't needed or wanted. I can't understand why Red have gone this route. CF is great on a race car, but pointless extravagance on a workaday movie camera body.

Mike

 

[Simon Dunne]

http://www.broadcastnow.co.uk/techf...cktitle=Latest-Technology-News&contentID=1151

Well, at least there's something out there now that can edit 8K......always plan your work-flow!

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

Hi Mike,


Feel you frustration, but see it a bit differently.
Whilst the CF Epic was a big leap in price over the Epic - suspect that very few were made and the fixed cost recovery (incl. R&D) contributed significantly to the price difference. Weapon CF will be produced in much larger numbers so suspect the actual premium to be quite small in the case of weapon - and nothing like the Epic premium for CF. So think the CF finish is a bit of a red herring - it's what's under the bonnet that's quite different between the CF and Mg Weapons. A better analogy would be Epic Vs Scarlet than CF Epic versus Regular Epic based on my humble opinion and the still quite limited info we all have

In terms of your usage and CF not being appropriate - your use is what I would call pretty specialised and therefore an outlier. Volcano shoots !! The rump of the bell curve however probably does prefer CF over Mg all else being equal - so commercially it makes sense for RED to cater for that - and less so for the outliers. That said, given your situation and the fact RED does cater for specialist applications - am sure it is worth having the conversation with RED about re-housing a CF weapon in an Mg body - if that is the real deal killer for you. Am sure something could be worked out unless the internals are physically materially different , which would surprise me.

Regardless, have enjoyed your posts over the years and would be sad to see you retire from RED

All the best, Marc

Oh I'm going to keep shooting and loving my Dragon for a long time.And keep a sense of proportion; a VV camera for $70k pisses all over Arri.

It's just the CF that gripes; consider Dragon. A Dragon is $26k. A CF Dragon is $50k - for NO difference in performance. That CF costs an arm and a leg.

A VV camera for $70k isn't a bad deal at all - but it should come with an option for a metal body version at $50-55k, say, for those of us - the vast majority - who would love 8K but won't pay a 'carbon tax' to get it.

 

[Marc Fisher]

My point was that I don't believe the 'carbon tax' on the weapon is that material. Maybe 1K or 2K at a guess. It's not comparable to the Dragon CF versus Dragon for many reasons.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

My point was that I don't believe the 'carbon tax' on the weapon is that material. Maybe 1K or 2K at a guess. It's not comparable to the Dragon CF versus Dragon for many reasons.

I think this is probably true. Production costs for high tech materials can drop over time just like other technology. Who knows how much less a more traditional body would cost at this point.

 

[Marc Fisher]

I think this is probably true. Production costs for high tech materials can drop over time just like other technology. Who knows how much less a more traditional body would cost at this point.

Agreed, but volume is also a very big factor. How many carbon dragons have been sold ? We have no idea of course - but is it less than 1000 - surely. Less than 100 - quite possible. And it looks a lot like a halo/jewellery product - so perhaps the mark-up was still healthy. Only some very well heeled - super weight sensitive operators could justify it commercially am sure, plus those that just want the best regardless of cost (non commercial). It was however a good prototype for the weapon that can benefit from the trickle-down, expertise gained/R&D. A good indication is to look at the CF markup of parts now in the store versus he Mg parts - from memory - it was 20% or so - not 100%. So the CF finish adds to the cost - but nowhere near as it did with Dragon. And for the many aerial operators - the weight saving will definitely justify this small premium.

 

[Brad Grimm]

Wow! Just ordered
When can we see some footage from this bad boy!?

 

[Michael Dalton]

Agreed, but volume is also a very big factor. How many carbon dragons have been sold ? We have no idea of course - but is it less than 1000 - surely. Less than 100 - quite possible. And it looks a lot like a halo/jewellery product - so perhaps the mark-up was still healthy. Only some very well heeled - super weight sensitive operators could justify it commercially am sure, plus those that just want the best regardless of cost (non commercial). It was however a good prototype for the weapon that can benefit from the trickle-down, expertise gained/R&D. A good indication is to look at the CF markup of parts now in the store versus he Mg parts - from memory - it was 20% or so - not 100%. So the CF finish adds to the cost - but nowhere near as it did with Dragon. And for the many aerial operators - the weight saving will definitely justify this small premium.

Speaking from experience, the attraction to the carbon is probably specific to projects and need then just as a cool thing. Two factors came into play for me. One was I simple could not wait for the upgrade to dragon. The second is weight. I do a lot of expedition stuff and shedding weight, even a pound here and there could make or break a shoot

It's a hefty price for these upgrades, surprisingly so! It's clear that red is looking to make great cameras and push the envelope futher, rather then appease the bulk of its clients. This where people need to evaluate their needs and ask them self what they need going forward. If you don't need vista or the cool modals to make your work better this upgrade is not necessary, and you should not be pissed. People have to realize if they own an epic or a dragon they are still current. This update is meant to carry technology forward for only half of the group red owners. I hope that the other half realize they don't need upgrade and they just back to shooting with their amazing cameras. Red one although bulky is still current in terms of image.

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

I think this is probably true. Production costs for high tech materials can drop over time just like other technology. Who knows how much less a more traditional body would cost at this point.

Not difficult.

Epic Dragon $26k.

Carbon Dragon $50k.

ZERO difference in electronics, performance or spec; the price difference is entirely down to the cost of a carbon fiber body. It's a hugely expensive extravagance.

Gold iPhones.

Mike

 

[shashbugu]

Speaking from experience, the attraction to the carbon is probably specific to projects and need then just as a cool thing. Two factors came into play for me. One was I simple could not wait for the upgrade to dragon. The second is weight. I do a lot of expedition stuff and shedding weight, even a pound here and there could make or break a shoot.

There are always more niche markets then you think. I make wildlife films and you'd think its the last place for CF or vista, but in a way nature was second only to sports for driving HD and now it's one of the first serious contenders in the 4k markets.

With imax and networks like NHK promoting 8k, it makes vista and 65 mm attractive. It's a hefty price for these upgrades, surprisingly so! It's clear that red is looking to make great cameras and push the envelope futher, rather then appease the bulk of its clients. This where people need to evaluate their needs and ask them self what they need going forward. If you don't need vista or the cool modals to make your work better this upgrade is not necessary, and you should not be pissed. People have to realize if they own an epic or a dragon they are still current. This update is meant to carry technology forward for only half of the group red owners. I hope that the other half realize they don't need upgrade and they just back to shooting with their amazing cameras. Red one although bulky is still current in terms of image.

Everybody agrees it's great technology, some of the most innovative and the best, however it is pricey. You factor in R&D and American based labor cost etc. It is what it is.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

I don't mind my Dragon being heavy because it isn't a carbon. It would be nice to have, but for me, the specs are more important than the material. It's a bit sad that there are only high end material options for Weapon and that the biggest thing about Weapon only comes to CF. I understand that this will compete with cameras like Arri 65, but I feel that the original feeling I had towards Red One, that here comes a revolutionary camera at a revolutionary price, is gone. Now, Red is closing in on the same pricing as Arri and Sony, making it a high end big studio/budget production camera only.
It's not that I'm complaining, there's enough productions out there who will benefit from the Weapon CF 8K and there will be enough productions for my Dragon, but pushing the price has always been just as important as pushing technology. Even though BlackMagic design doesn't do any good cameras (I've had enough of dropped frames and other hickups), they make the splashes in the industry over and over due to their technology for low prices. Say what you want, but 15 stops 120 fps 4K for the price they have is pretty impressive.

My point being, I don't think it would hurt to have an 8K option for people who just don't have the finance to go CF or even Magnesium. Having a weapon upgrade with aluminum for the same upgrade price as earlier upgrade steps (9500) would enable a lot more people to join in.

 

[Jarred Land]

I don't mind my Dragon being heavy because it isn't a carbon. It would be nice to have, but for me, the specs are more important than the material. It's a bit sad that there are only high end material options for Weapon and that the biggest thing about Weapon only comes to CF. I understand that this will compete with cameras like Arri 65, but I feel that the original feeling I had towards Red One, that here comes a revolutionary camera at a revolutionary price, is gone. Now, Red is closing in on the same pricing as Arri and Sony, making it a high end big studio/budget production camera only.
It's not that I'm complaining, there's enough productions out there who will benefit from the Weapon CF 8K and there will be enough productions for my Dragon, but pushing the price has always been just as important as pushing technology. Even though BlackMagic design doesn't do any good cameras (I've had enough of dropped frames and other hickups), they make the splashes in the industry over and over due to their technology for low prices. Say what you want, but 15 stops 120 fps 4K for the price they have is pretty impressive.

My point being, I don't think it would hurt to have an 8K option for people who just don't have the finance to go CF or even Magnesium. Having a weapon upgrade with aluminum for the same upgrade price as earlier upgrade steps (9500) would enable a lot more people to join in.

Weapon is not a replacement for Scarlet or Epic.. it is an addition to the line. Making a 4K sensor today is pretty easy and cheap specially if you buy off-the-shelf sensors. An 8K VV sensor is expensive to even just fabricate alone.. and the R&D is insane. It cannot live in the Scarlet territory for just that reason. In a few years maybe.. but not right now.

 

[vincent kardasik]

Jarred,
I know it's probably too early to talk about specs but when the 8K upgrade will be ready, can we expect higher frame rates at 6K, 5K and 4K for example?

 

[Mike 'Fireman' Ross]

Weapon is not a replacement for Scarlet or Epic.. it is an addition to the line. Making a 4K sensor today is pretty easy and cheap specially if you buy off-the-shelf sensors. An 8K VV sensor is expensive to even just fabricate alone.. and the R&D is insane. It cannot live in the Scarlet territory for just that reason. In a few years maybe.. but not right now.

We grok that Jarred, we truly do. What jars is not being able to pay for the 8K sensor and all the R&D that goes with it, without also paying for a very expensive carbon body we don't need or want. That grates, badly - and from what I'm hearing, here and elsewhere, I'm not alone. We get that it's high-end, that you have a lot of R&D to recoup, and that dictates a certain price - but not CF on top!

Please rethink this. I'd get in line for 8K, but not 8K plus carbon fiber. Carbon is niche technology for specialist applications; 8K is a bit niche too, it's certainly very high-end - but they're largely different niches. There's a LOT of us who want 8K but don't need CF, don't want CF, and won't pay for CF. Or so my gut tells me.

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, you're very successful businesspeople and you know your market, I'm not presumptuous enough to call you flat out wrong. But it feels wrong to me. Very wrong.

I need to know before I even think of pulling the trigger on a Weapon upgrade, that my non-Carbon Weapon will be upgradeable to 8K. Can you tell me that, Jarred?

Mike

 

[Jarred Land]

We grok that Jarred, we truly do. What jars is not being able to pay for the 8K sensor and all the R&D that goes with it, without also paying for a very expensive carbon body we don't need or want. That grates, badly - and from what I'm hearing, here and elsewhere, I'm not alone. We get that it's high-end, that you have a lot of R&D to recoup, and that dictates a certain price - but not CF on top!

Please rethink this. I'd get in line for 8K, but not 8K plus carbon fiber. Carbon is niche technology for specialist applications; 8K is a bit niche too, it's certainly very high-end - but they're largely different niches. There's a LOT of us who want 8K but don't need CF, don't want CF, and won't pay for CF. Or so my gut tells me.

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, you're very successful businesspeople and you know your market, I'm not presumptuous enough to call you flat out wrong. But it feels wrong to me. Very wrong.

I need to know before I even think of pulling the trigger on a Weapon upgrade, that my non-Carbon Weapon will be upgradeable to 8K. Can you tell me that, Jarred?

Mike

Mike you are comparing Aluminum Epic Dragon to Carbon Epic Dragon. The Weapon is Magnesium vs Carbon. The price difference is not in the materials. The majority of the difference in price is in the electronics between the MG and Carbon bodies. 8K works just fine in the magnesium bodies, I have one at NAB that I have been shooting with. If you hate CF for whatever reason, I can build you a 8K MG Weapon but the cost is going to be about the same.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

Weapon is not a replacement for Scarlet or Epic.. it is an addition to the line. Making a 4K sensor today is pretty easy and cheap specially if you buy off-the-shelf sensors. An 8K VV sensor is expensive to even just fabricate alone.. and the R&D is insane. It cannot live in the Scarlet territory for just that reason. In a few years maybe.. but not right now.

I wasn't referring to Scarlet per say but a Weapon aluminum, if it were made. If, as you say, there might come some improvements on the internal technology in a few years, maybe there will be an Epic Dragon to Weapon option for us who can't afford the CF Weapon 8K as it is now?
But the main part I think is that the material of the camera is holding back many because the price point becomes too steep for us based on the material alone. I think there are a lot of people who don't need either CF or Magnesium, who only look at the specs and what they enable us to do.

In the end it creates a situation where it seems impossible to keep on track. If we don't upgrade now, then there will be a new sensor and camera in the future and that will cost even more on top of the cost for Weapon and 8K and the financial situation lags behind making it impossible to do minor investments during a longer time span and instead push us to pay a lot more at one time to be able to jump onto that train. So in a few years when a new sensor comes around and we who stayed with Epic Dragon due to a financial impossibility to continue with the weapon upgrade want to move on, we will be even further behind to make that leap. What kept most of us going and being able to upgrade was that even though a $9500 upgrade isn't a minor investment, it's a possible investment to do as small steps over a few years. Right now, the real heavy upgrade is the 8K version of Weapon and it is a $49000 upgrade from Epic Dragon. So if we stay with Epic Dragon and wait until the next generation sensor, we will probably have to pay close to $49000 first and on top of that for the new sensor technology. This means that Epic Dragon may be "end of the line" for many people.

I'm not complaining because I will be happy with my Dragon, but I understand the situation many feel they are under, which is that even though Epic Dragon is a part of the front line family of Red cameras, it will be end of the line for many people. Probably myself included if upgrades aren't lowered in price a couple of years from now. I really think it's awesome what you do and how you push technology and that should never stop, but I'm just giving the point of view of the "little guys" like myself who work hard to try and stay in the front lines with technology.

(But I'm still gonna rent the 8K if I'm involved with heavier projects in the future :thumbup1: