5D iv and 1dx ii as a b roll camera...

[Wayne Morellini]

Let's assume 500 mb/s might be similar to 144mb/s h264. Has anybody seen any compression tests of these cameras compared to a credible h264 implementation? That should give you an idea.

A few things to examine are rendering of waves, detail and edges.

In the old days we saw canon pocket mjpeg camcorder kill mpeg2/h264 (forget which) due to better detail retention instead of smudges.

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

No need to over complicate it Wayne.

The C300 mkII shoots 4k DCI intra frame at 405 Mbps. I haven't studied that footage all that much, but let's just assume that it's pretty clean (not talking about noise or anything like that here) from a compression view point.

We can then conclude that that is the bitrate Canon feels is needed when using their modern 2015/2016 XFAVC codec.

Shooting mjpeg results in just over 500 Mbps. That is the bitrate Canon feels is needed for this "ancient" algorithm.

We obviously don't need to bring in codecs into the discussion that don't capture discreet frames. That would be "apples to bananas".

It's 500 vs 400, not more and not less. Or, use the 305 Mbps XC-10 as a base. It's UHD 8bit. Add a little extra for the larger DCI frame and let's say you at least need 350Mbps. But it's in that region. Not 500 vs 100.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Yeah, I forgot to put the clean footage in I was going to.

Andree, it is a little more complicated than that. 500mb/s MJPEG is the level of quality that Canon feels that you should get on that cheaper camera. It in no way means that the two are equal. So some test will reveal how far apart cameras are and which is going to blend better with Red footage. But did that Samsung have 10 bit?

Now Intra and Inter codecs, bannanas and oranges. Now people are talking about inter codec cameras here, so it natters if what people want is an orange (intra quality) and get a banana instead . But it's not oranges and bananas we are talking about, it is picture quality.

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

Andree, it is a little more complicated than that. 500mb/s MJPEG is the level of quality that Canon feels that you should get on that cheaper camera. It in no way means that the two are equal. So some test will reveal how far apart cameras are and which is going to blend better with Red footage. But did that Samsung have 10 bit?.

I'm not quite following you here. I have not spoken of a Samsung... was it further up in the thread?

And what "two" aren't equal? What comparison are you thinking about?

This is a frame grab of a mjpeg stream (open in new tab for 4k)

EDIT: 520Mbps equals 20.8Mbit per frame averaged, which in turn is equal to 2.6MB. If I crop a raw photo to 4096x2160 and exports it from PS I need to adjust the jpeg quality setting down to 91% in order to get a 2.6MB file. While not a perfect example, it still gives you a 'sense' of what 2.6MB per frame means for a 4k DCI jpg.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Hmm, I'm referencing the 8 bit angle, and if there was a Samsung that could do 10 bit as a better alternative for pushing around in post to match image to where somebody wants to push Red footage in cine work. So, not only does the 8 bit restrict you, but pushing the Red footage can lead to it being even further away than what the 8 but csnbe pushed. If course, you could more easily match what the 8 bit mjpeg footage can do (where it can he pushed).

However, the Samsung Nx1 500, or whatever, they were opening it up to adjustment, there was a thread in eoshd, I think, but I think I closed the page tabbthe other day, as it is not so much heeded. But the camera hacking group get very good results, particularly Panasonic GH series, maybe 10 bit UHD is there. Frankily, if you can get such results stably from the GH4, I would just forget Canon, as the GH4 is a better shooter. However the industry likes its 8 bit rubbish. If you can line up those 8 buts where you hedd them in camera on the shit, they ate OK. There is something like 2 buts of play on log footage for pro video from memory (we had a colorist in the projects). However, with HDR and wide color, you simply need note hits, and if you are going to push the Red footage too much to match with 8 bit. 10-12 bit used to be the professional standard in pro video, but now I'm going say I can guess it's 11-16 bits around here (and if we ate unfortunate one of the professional cinema colorist will turn up to tell us so, and that all our still camera stuff is cheap rubbish and other such $200k plus gear budget stuff, they love to talk )

Frankily, we should have a kickstarter to psy somebody to figure out multiple levels of quality, and which cameras go well together for each. Better still, get a magazine involved to part sponsir it. At least we can point people to the only cameras for s price point that produce the best results, for different types of work. Would give manufactures incentive to try to match up quality levels.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

BTW, thanks for the footage, but still too compressible. Get a long GOP camera and more be it around on that grass, and go to the beach with plenty of waves and light reflection, and see how either type of camera standd up.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Yeah, just opened up the frame full sized and looked at it from a premium seating viewing angle and can see some slight issues. Sone if it might be from water on the grass edges. But not going to matter to most people.

So basically Andree, that wasn't a comment on watching grass grow is like waiting for some cameras to get delivered?

 

[Sulekh Suman]

workaround for Log

workaround for Log

If you are not planning on shooting both stills and video (70:30) then you are better off with something else.

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

Perhaps first—to make it clear—I'm not the original poster here. I didn't ask any questions, I'm just providing answers. Or, rather… try to provide un-biased facts so that the OP can find out the right answer for himself.

Get a long GOP camera and more be it around on that grass, and go to the beach with plenty of waves and light reflection, and see how either type of camera standd up.

I know the difference between Long GOP and intra frame. That's why I specifically pointed out that Canon's mjpeg is intra frame and motion stable. I don't shoot Long GOP if I can help it.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Yes, but the discussion was about long GOP, 8 bit, so in.the interest of unbiased comparison, useful to show the comparison. I frankily think it is a mistake to use such a camera against Red unless real low end work, on DVD or bluray, local or low end business customers. I respect your opinion, but I'm here to provide un-buased facts too, and have the rough technical canera development knowledge (just don't ask me anything.about ordinary lens, or effects and grading, still llearning). But if they wantbto di so, all we can do is keep them appraised andblet them choose. BTW: on GH3, they basically mansged to get rid of GOP a fair bit, wonder if they did so on GH4 too.

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

Yes, but the discussion was about long GOP, 8 bit…

I don't think so Wayne. I went back a checked too (but maybe to quickly?). I see you bring it up out of nowhere, but the original question was to use the latest Canon cameras as a B-cam for RED. I have no opinion about that, but rather wanted to state from experience that the mjpeg codec is very solid. It IS 8bit—no way to get around that.

I also wanted to make sure that if people look at the "large files" (honestly didn't think this would come up on Reduser), at least they compare them to other INTRA frame formats and 4k resolution. I guess I tried to say—but failed—DON'T bring Long GOP recording into the mix.

 

[Sabyasachi Patra]

I frankily think it is a mistake to use such a camera against Red unless real low end work, on DVD or bluray, local or low end business customers.

Even Hollywood films continue to use any camera, even a Go Pro, to get footage and mix with their red or alexa footage. I guess mistake is a strong word to use.

The OP had asked for opinion. People here are providing opinions about how good the MJPEG codec of the 1DXII is (since no one here has a 5DIV). If someone can mix the 1DXII footage with that of RED Epic or Dragon then it will save us a lot of speculation.

 

[Sergio Perez]

Even Hollywood films continue to use any camera, even a Go Pro, to get footage and mix with their red or alexa footage. I guess mistake is a strong word to use.

The OP had asked for opinion. People here are providing opinions about how good the MJPEG codec of the 1DXII is (since no one here has a 5DIV). If someone can mix the 1DXII footage with that of RED Epic or Dragon then it will save us a lot of speculation.

I hate promising anything like this because normally I end up having to work and other commitments and not delivering, but might try a couple of shots later tomorrow. Probably with both Cinestyle and neutral dialled down on the 1DX II and Epic Dragon at 6K 2:1, which is what I normally shoot with for later crops.

Don't know how to share this though.

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

Some comparisons in a low DR scene. WB set to daylight. Shot outdoors in an Atrium (warm colored walls, but no roof).

Canon 1Dc | Canon Log

Canon 1DxmkII | Technicolor

Canon 1DxmkII | Neutral

 

[Sergio Perez]

Some comparisons in a low DR scene. WB set to daylight. Shot outdoors in an Atrium (warm colored walls, but no roof).

Canon 1Dc | Canon Log

Canon 1DxmkII | Technicolor

Canon 1DxmkII | Neutral

Andree, any chance for a dragon with similar checker on same location?

 

[AndreeMarkefors]

Andree, any chance for a dragon with similar checker on same location?

I'd love to! All we need now is for RED to send me a permanent loaner—one RED of each flavour! =)

Sorry, Sergio… I'd love to do some controlled tests but I don't have a RED currently. Upside is we have a RED dealer in Zürich now. At some point they might sponsor a day worth of shooting, who knows. But they I'd try to find something more scenic—this is Switzerland after all....

 

[Wayne Morellini]

I don't think so Wayne. I went back a checked too (but maybe to quickly?). I see you bring it up out of nowhere, but the original question was to use the latest Canon cameras as a B-cam for RED. I have no opinion about that, but rather wanted to state from experience that the mjpeg codec is very solid. It IS 8bit—no way to get around that.

I also wanted to make sure that if people look at the "large files" (honestly didn't think this would come up on Reduser), at least they compare them to other INTRA frame formats and 4k resolution. I guess I tried to say—but failed—DON'T bring Long GOP recording into the mix.

Maybe you did. People were bringing up other cameras, I thought the Sony's were not using intra, was I wrong? You brought up long GOP. I merely did the comparison of how Canon intra compression isn't that bad, but all aren't that good. Unbelievable coincidence, I met somebody doing some pretty nice work, that suggested I buy a Canon rather than wait to decide on a new Red by end of the year. If it only had more this that the other, I may well could of. Too me it is a $1600AU like camera. Now, for the $1600, I'd still rather a GH4 (or 6k GH5). Maybe they are more now. You get a descent intra fullhd mode, and with the GH5, who knows, maybe a descent UHD intra mode (but no super sensor apparently). However, a red helium 6k camera phone with lens mount at the same price would be hard to pass up.

So, there are other things to look at fur a B camera.

Now enough of going around in circles trying to agree together again.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Even Hollywood films continue to use any camera, even a Go Pro, to get footage and mix with their red or alexa footage. I guess mistake is a strong word to use.

The OP had asked for opinion. People here are providing opinions about how good the MJPEG codec of the 1DXII is (since no one here has a 5DIV). If someone can mix the 1DXII footage with that of RED Epic or Dragon then it will save us a lot of speculation.

Seen it used as a special effect. Unless it is being used as an special effect, it is a bad effect. You can do it yourself, and using computational photography to get it closer, but lots of time unless you have a program to do it. Believe me, I have wanted to use such devices for cinema, but my points here indicate caution and certain limitations. However, depending on what happens this year, and up to NAB, I might well do so. I have st least one special affect film (read arty) that even my sub $100 720p camera could do (if I could lock down exposure, which might be possible if I could figure out how to modify the right main board traces.

The other things, it is more widespread conversation with comparison to other cameras, which are better, but have questionable codec quality. However, some features can make them more suitable for mixing, but are not in the 4k modes of most cheap cameras.

 

[Maik Müller]

Maik, I love you brother and I know youre not really advising to get the A6300 but: Stay the fuck away from the A6300! This thing has the worst rolling shutter ever.
I should've brought it back instantly. Guess I'm stuck with it. (But stills are pretty great.)

Hehehe, thanks Patrick. Yeah, rolling shutter is "impressive" on that one. Totally overlooked that when bringing up the comparison. But when it comes to pure specs and features, formfactor AND price-tag, i'd still test the A6300 (and probably send it back ). In some cases RS doesn't matter that much, but Sony should have know this camera won't be used for steady shots solely...

Thats probably the other extreme, Sony is putting too much features into small bodies for low prices and at the end some of those things don't work out.

BTW, the 5D4 seems to have notable RS too.

 

[Mike Finegan]

Can you comment on the A7Rii codec and HDMI out? since all A7SRii 4K video is 8 bit there will not be same range as RED
(I own Raven and A7Rii)
I presume you use an external recorder on A7Rii to get high bit rate and 4:2:2?
Which mode do you like best - super35 crop 4K or full frame pixel binning 4K?

Maybe 5DMkiv will motivate Sony to not 'limit' the quality of HDMI out