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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

#4K4ALL

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Hugh Scully said:
I recently bought a Scarlet Dragon. Just check the site. It costs $24K to get it to "shootable" and well worth every hard earned penny. I cannot imagine the Raven being less than $10K and will probably closer to the C300 mark of $16K set up to shoot. This is of course, abject speculation and may be readily ignored BUT, I will eat my hat, or better, eat the boxes my Scarlet Dragon came in, if it's the price of a GH4
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...4all can't be $10K, not even a half... Only $3,999 can fit the category. $2,999 would shake the competition. $1,999 would enter in the consumer segment, even though, GH4 is used by lots of PROfessionals out there in the real world from corporate/events to wedding videoraphy, without mention of SERIOUS narrative work such as this example here shot on GH2 (among many others going on the DSLR/Mirrorless revolution):


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upstream_Color

box office reached 10x the initial budget:
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?page=main&id=upstreamcolor.htm

If RED wants to make Raven a redvolution, this is perfectly at the range :-)
 
Tarquin Cardona said:
I thinks that is totally correct. Red shot at 5K produces a great 4K image. Straight 4K (4K 4 4K) tends to looks muddier when compared with other imagers like the C300MK2 or FS7 even. So that makes the Raven thing very interesting. Because as much as we want to knock the competition - a lot of clients and producers like the 'cleanness' of the images they see with other cams. So if Raven were a softer 4K when viewed side by side - we all know how that could go. I am really intrigued to see what this is going to be and how they will pull it off. For now - and it sounds like for the foreseeable - shooting over scale to resolve back to 4K will be what makes a real Dragon a Dragon or a Weapon or whatever....
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The "sharpness" you refer to in the other cams is very likely because of internal sharpening in the image post processing, inside the camera; NOT because of an inherent superiority in their de-bayering process. It is not yielding higher measured resolution. Remember, REDcode is raw so it is recording the sensor data with no post processing.

De-bayering, by definition, will soften the image and also, anything shot without an OLPF may yield a sharper image but is going to suffer a lot from aliasing. So, if you want a 4K image from RED to look "sharp" at 4K, you can always apply sharpening in post, as wanted/needed.
 
The only way Terry that I would see you or anyone not yet weaponized having to worry is if in fact the Raven does do some downsample to attain its 4K and so effectively gives a 4k product that is as good as Scarlet Dragon or Epic in a new body style with a few of the Weapon benefits like Auto B Shade, lighter body etc... But - as I think Red are not animals - this could be the perfect replacement for a a Scarlet Dragon owner and perhaps the trade is much nearer to parity and keeps you current. And then over time the distinction becomes those who shoot 4K tops content and those who need 6-8K and beyond for bigger stuff. So I still see 4K4ALL being a response to those who couldn't afford to go to MG etc... and in truth if they are honest with themselves do not even need to shoot 6K. But it is only meaningful if the 4K the Raven makes is as good or better than what a current Dragon can achieve by oversample. If not - then you don't have anything worry about there either really.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
The "sharpness" you refer to in the other cams is very likely because of internal sharpening in the image post processing, inside the camera; NOT because of an inherent superiority in their de-bayering process. It is not yielding higher measured resolution. Remember, REDcode is raw so it is recording the sensor data with no post processing.

De-bayering, by definition, will soften the image and also, anything shot without an OLPF may yield a sharper image but is going to suffer a lot from aliasing. So, if you want a 4K image from RED to look "sharp" at 4K, you can always apply sharpening in post, as wanted/needed.
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Red uses a very strong OLPF. This is what causes the lack of sharpness
 
Milano Questa said:
Red uses a very strong OLPF. This is what causes the lack of sharpness
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That and it doesn't do any in camera sharpening process like the other cameras... Just like Terry said. Add post sharpening (that you control - unlike the other cameras -) and the picture is better)
 
Emanuel A. said:
...4all can't be $10K, not even a half... Only $3,999 can fit the category. $2,999 would shake the competition. $1,999 would enter in the consumer segment, even though, GH4 is used by lots of PROfessionals out there in the real world from corporate/events to wedding videoraphy, without mention of SERIOUS narrative work such as this example here shot on GH2 (among many others going on the DSLR/Mirrorless revolution):

If RED wants to make Raven a redvolution, this is perfectly at the range :-)
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I'm a big fan of the GH4. I had a GH2. Love love love them! But just because you can get a compressed video codec of AVCHD 4K something from a mass produced DSLR doesn't mean that RED is going to sell a 4K weapon that does REDcode for anywhere near that based on the notion that 4K4all means that now it has to compete with those cameras.

There's different kinds of 4K in the world ;)
 
Glen Powell said:
That and it doesn't do any in camera sharpening process like the other cameras... Just like Terry said. Add post sharpening (that you control - unlike the other cameras -) and the picture is better)
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Which cameras are you talking about? As far as i know most cine cameras don't do in camera sharpening.
 
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Terry VerHaar said:
AS it stands, I just don't see a "logical" place for the Raven in the current lineup but, of course, at this point we know so little.
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I have no idea, but just guesses. We still don't know "all the info", but..... I am thinking Raven lands either above or below the current RED Scarlet Dragon. That's if for those of us who think 4K4ALL refers to the price point of the camera body. There's a market segment in the $8-$16K-ish range where I can see an entry level RED camera doing well. In fact it could even be priced very near to Scarlet Dragon and still be interesting if the feature sets are different enough.

Another thought that occurred to me last night is this might be indicative of a slight price drop on Epic and Scarlet Dragon bodies even, which makes those more "4ALL" and Raven could exist in the current Scarlet Dragon price point.

I don't think it will be as expensive as Epic Dragon, but at the same time Raven indeed has new features like WiFi and a likely some of the modern developments that Weapon has produced. I don't see an entry level camera shooting 6K at speed. Somebody mention an affordable 8K body, just remember the Weapon 8K upgrade was $10K at NAB and will be going up to $20K-ish. Much of that is going to be due to the cost of the sensor itself, meaning larger sensors = more expensive. Which is why I personally think that RED might have a smaller cut 4K or whatever the max format/resolution is of Raven in there. The different in cost between a 6K and 4K-4.5K sensor if executed that way could make a difference and keep Epic Dragon as well as Scarlet Dragon on their own levels. I also think "fixed", meaning fixed lens mount, and whatever else can be optimized during the build of the camera can help bring costs down.

Bleh. this is all speculation. Friday is coming. We'll certainly know what's up very soon.

It's exciting stuff for sure.
 
it would be incredible if the original "RED ROCKET" would enhance the workflow with a camera like this. Mine has been sitting on the shelf in it's Sonnet chassis since Dragon + new Mac pro but still..would be nice to fire up the imac!
 
If it's 4k-Dragon (as in smaller than 4k MX, and closer to s16mm/m43), then I could see Raven being paired with Veydras and Veydra Anamorphics a lot, if they cover it... Even still, on paper sub-s35 isn't my cup of tea and hence it'd have to be substantially cheaper (and I don't mean "inexpensive compared to other RED offerings", I mean cheaper compared to competitor's S35 offerings -- FS5, BM Cube Cameras, Ursa/Ursa Mini, 4k DSLRs, etc.)
 
Milano Questa said:
Which cameras are you talking about? As far as i know most cine cameras don't do in camera sharpening.
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All of them do. Arri sharpens ProRes and even in Arriraw you have the option to adjust the amount of sharpening. They need to, because as much as we are all discussing 4k vs 5k the Arri is only 2.8k and nobody seems to really complain about that.

I am almost sure that this a real Dragon sensor and hope RED does not mess around with the pixel size and keep everything the same so that the Raven can intercut with Scarlet and Epic and Weapon with the same sensitivity and color that we all love. With the same dragon pixel size you can shoot any RED camera in 4k mode and get the same image quality with the same field of view. Just like Scarlet was to Dragon. That would make the Raven sensor a 21mm cut out of the 8k Dragon sensor and land on the small side of Super 35mm, about the same size as the current 4K Black Magic super 35mm sensor. I was talking to someone on about sensor yield over the weekend and I think it makes sense to cut the 8k into these raven sensors. If a 8K sensor fails in only one row or column RED can still get 2 Raven 4K sensors by slicing it up instead of throwing the whole thing away.

I think RAVEN is either going to be REDCODE or PRORES but for under $10,000 I do not think we will get both.
 
That's why I said "between" the low and the high end. Something more than GH4/A7 but less than Dragon. I'm hoping for $7=10K.


Michael Jarvis said:
Not it trying to be pessimistic but, personally, I don't think there is any chance we will see a shoot able Raven for the cost of a GH4 or A7s....not even a remote chance.

I think some may have high hopes for the definition of 4k4ALL. Jarred, please prove me wrong.

I imagine "affordable" to be shootable for around $10k.

Total speculation though.
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#4K4ALL means that when Raven comes out, Red ScarletMX price will go down hence the hashbrown #4k4ALL. Which it has already by the way. Someone is selling theirs for $3800 body and mount in the selling forum.
 
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Everyone is worried about what this does to their Scarletts and Epic, but my guess is they won't be affected much.

It just seems like there's gonna be a lot of compromises to get this camera so economically priced.

We are already talking 4K locked and fixed mount and small image circle. There will be more compromises.

My guess for the biggest one would be no Redraw, just Prores only. That will make it clear this isn't competition for Scarlet or the next Scarlet Weapon that no doubt will come out within a year with all new specs.

Once it is announced it is Prores a bunch of scarlet and epic owners will make a collective sigh of relief and people can accept this camera for what it is, a new entry level offering.
 
Alex Larson said:
I think RAVEN is either going to be REDCODE or PRORES but for under $10,000 I do not think we will get both.
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I don't own a Red (yet) but, for me, the main reason I'm so eager to join the club is Redcode. If the Raven only shoots ProRes, I'd probably pass. I know Red has lots going for it besides Redcode but I can say confidently that, for me, it is basically the only reason that I want a Red.
 
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