#4K4ALL

[Patrick Tresch]

Then you have other choices, scarlet dragon, epic and weapon.

You are probably right. Magnesium will be my cam but to bad RED went from a top of the line 17'500 cam (6 years back) to a 60'000 camera. We are going from the owner operator to a renter maket. This will influence the way we are shooting RED. I've done a lot of indie features and documentries in RED now I'll have probably to move to another brand for those projects. Epic was the perfect camera (price/quality/versatility) for the indies.

Pat

 

[Phil Holland]

You are probably right. Magnesium will be my cam but too bad RED went from a top of the line 17'500 cam (6 years back) to a 60'000 camera. We are going from the owner operator to a rentier maket. This will influence the way we are shooting RED. I've done a lot of indie features and documentries in RED now I'll have probably to move to another brand for those projects. Epic was the perfect camera (price/quality/versatility) for the indies.

Pat

That is indeed an interesting statement. And perhaps more telling of the times, meaning competition. Top of the line these days means something else now that other manufacturers are in the 4K and shortly 4K+ game.

These days it's gotten rather automotive in many ways. If you need performance and features you'll be looking at the various market segments and price points to satisfy your needs.

RED indeed covers a broad range of segments now with cameras containing the Dragon sensor and previous Mysterium-X bodies.

The curiosity here is where exactly will Raven land in the line-up. If Raven features a Dragon sensor, it will fit somewhere in the Dragon line-up:

- Scarlet Dragon
- Epic Dragon
- Weapon MG 6K Dragon
- Weapon CF/Forged 6K Dragon
- Weapon CF/Forged 8K Dragon

Not exactly sure why you'd need to move to another brand for your indies and docs as all of these cameras have shot feature length productions and nearly everything else you can imagine.

Personally I don't think we are getting into a "rentier" market, I think RED is just satisfying the needs of those who are demanding top tier performance with Weapons release. This will indeed fit into rental houses once Weapon's features and performance gains recognition and the desire to have them out on productions grows. This satisfies other shooters who can fit Weapon into their owner/operator business model as well.

The big difference between the RED One days and now is RED makes many models that span across those market segments instead of just one.

 

[Erich Roland]

You are probably right. Magnesium will be my cam but to bad RED went from a top of the line 17'500 cam (6 years back) to a 60'000 camera. We are going from the owner operator to a renter maket. This will influence the way we are shooting RED. I've done a lot of indie features and documentries in RED now I'll have probably to move to another brand for those projects. Epic was the perfect camera (price/quality/versatility) for the indies.

Pat

"Epic was perfect camera for Indies"....

well what has changed for Epic? Nothing.

Only that there is another tier higher with more and different features. This new Weapon system is good for Red and good for all Red owners. The higher level Weapon camera will be more accepted in the Top productions which in turn will rise the stock of your Epic or Scarlet next time you bring it onto a set where maybe Alexa's have ruled. When you need Weapon abilities for a shoot, go and rent the body. Why buy that much camera if you don't require it most the time. Raven will bring another option, its all good.

 

[Matthew Quinn]

not a good time to move away from RED.. if anything this announcement is getting a lot of people wondering how they can get a second camera going (b-Cam). I am really interested in a camera that can give my GH4 a break from my smaller projects I don't feel comfortable bringing the epic dragon out too..if the budget does not allow for my 1st AC i normally grab the GH4 now i may be able to grab the RAVEN and who knows maybe adjust price so i can add another crew member! Remember these tools are designed for people to work them, sometimes the Epic Dragon eats the peoples scratch...I just hope the color science is the same or very similar to the Epic Dragon.

 

[Karel Šimůnek]

Jarred, please, give us another clue with another photo. We are hungry! :001_smile:

 

[Jack Stenner]

Something lighter, less complicated, cheaper, yet reinforcing of the RED ecosystem (raw) would be a perfect fit in education. We can't afford more than 1 Dragon/Weapon, but we could use a pile of Ravens slotted between the GH4/A7s on the low end and the big dog at the other.

 

[Michael Jarvis]

Something lighter, less complicated, cheaper, yet reinforcing of the RED ecosystem (raw) would be a perfect fit in education. We can't afford more than 1 Dragon/Weapon, but we could use a pile of Ravens slotted between the GH4/A7s on the low end and the big dog at the other.

Not it trying to be pessimistic but, personally, I don't think there is any chance we will see a shoot able Raven for the cost of a GH4 or A7s....not even a remote chance.

I think some may have high hopes for the definition of 4k4ALL. Jarred, please prove me wrong.

I imagine "affordable" to be shootable for around $10k.

Total speculation though.

 

[Tarquin Cardona]

Not it trying to be pessimistic but, personally, I don't think there is any chance we will see a shoot able Raven for the cost of a GH4 or A7s....not even a remote chance.

I think some may have high hopes for the definition of 4k4ALL. Jarred, please prove me wrong.

I imagine "affordable" to be shootable for around $10k.
Total speculation though.

I agree with Michael.

The Weapon upgrade spun a lot of people for a loop as they felt it was too steep financially, especially after their recent upgrades to Dragon etc... It also separated the different 'types' of RedUser there are. You have the 8K people and you have the content and indie people. For the former the path of Weapon makes sense. For the latter, something that makes life a little easier and is Red IQ with a few advantages or lighter form and auto black etc... may be what the 4ALL means. Its the camera that checks the boxes for those who a) can't or won't pay to go to MG or CF level and b) would be happy for a while with a solid 4K Red image for the work they do. I feel that is what the target is. Not a Red version of a GH4.

 

[Patrick Grossien]

Just look at the images in the first post. It's safe to say this mount is different from what we know. And there are no screws. It looks like the front is just one piece with an integrated mount (which itself looks different from the EF-mounts we know).

Lower line than Scarlet, yes and no. It highly depends on your perspective. If maximum resolution and probably sensor-size are the most important things, then yes, it looks like it's going to be lower than Scarlet Dragon. But on the other hand Raven is doing 4k @ 120fps, has a WEAPON-style body, is lighter, maybe consumes less power, has WiFi and i'm sure some other surprises too.

It's a different taste of RED. Where exactly it's place is in RED's product-line can't be answered right now. We have to wait for the next teases and/or friday.

Damn that will be a long week.

Damn true. Long week it is.
If this will be a MFT 4K camera I would say that it needs to be cheaper than ScarletD even with the newer body type. Can't wait

BTW I'd still bet on a S35 or larger sensor but the certainty isn't exactly 100%

 

[Hugh Scully]

I recently bought a Scarlet Dragon. Just check the site. It costs $24K to get it to "shootable" and well worth every hard earned penny. I cannot imagine the Raven being less than $10K and will probably closer to the C300 mark of $16K set up to shoot. This is of course, abject speculation and may be readily ignored BUT, I will eat my hat, or better, eat the boxes my Scarlet Dragon came in, if it's the price of a GH4

 

[sam karr]

I recently bought a Scarlet Dragon. Just check the site. It costs $24K to get it to "shootable." I cannot imagine the Raven being less than $10K and will probably closer to the C300 mark of $16K set up to shoot. This is of course, abject speculation and may be readily ignored BUT, I will eat my hat if it's the price of a GH4

I agree. The shootable scarlet MX on red.com is 14500$. I guess they will maybe replace it with the raven at the same price. New dragon sensor, 120fps, new body, new features, it will be the same price in the best case because it's really so much better. If they cut the price, like 7000-11000 for a shootable raven, I would be worried for Red because nothing would make sense anymore in their strategy which is based on "obsolescence obsolete". That would mean that they can cut any price at any moment and make your camera cost nothing in a sec. It's okay if you buy a 10000$ camera, but I would be worried as a weapon owner for example and i would think about it twice before investing in a pro red camera. That's the "obsolescence obsolete" part that made me interested in that company. If it's becoming "loose all your money if you can't make a payback in 3 monthes" I guess I'm out. But I do hope there will be a logic. People dreaming of a red camera at the price of a GH4, or any other cheap camera, never shot with a Red. It's just in a total different league, there is no competition between the vast majority of cheaper camera and a red or an arri. I'm amazed by some of the requests here.

 

[Elsie N]

I agree. The shootable scarlet MX on red.com is 14500$. I guess they will maybe replace it with the raven at the same price. New dragon sensor, 120fps, new body, new features, it will be the same price in the best case because it's really so much better. If they cut the price, like 7000-11000 for a shootable raven, I would be worried for Red because nothing would make sense anymore in their strategy which is based on "obsolescence obsolete". That would mean that they can cut any price at any moment and make your camera cost nothing in a sec. It's okay if you buy a 10000$ camera, but I would be worried as a weapon owner for example and i would think about it twice before investing in a pro red camera. That's the "obsolescence obsolete" part that made me interested in that company. If it's becoming "loose all your money if you can't make a payback in 3 monthes" I guess I'm out. But I do hope there will be a logic. People dreaming of a red camera at the price of a GH4, or any other cheap camera, never shot with a Red. It's just in a total different league, there is no competition between the vast majority of cheaper camera and a red or an arri. I'm amazed by some of the requests here.

As a Weapon 8k depositor I would not feel slighted in the least, even if they reduce the price of Weapon 8k in the future. I'm not into futures contracts... I'm in for what's now at what price. I don't rent but people who do probably think in terms of rents received. Those who rent themselves with the camera attached are probably only interested in whether or not having *X Caliber of Weapon in their kit will help them get work.

RED did a price decrease in the past and the world held together. Here's hoping that happens again at some point. Deflation is not always a bad thing for many.


*A name I suggested to Brent in the past... hope they trademarked it.

 

[Trevor Meier]

Damn this is going to be a long wait until Friday...

 

[Hugh Scully]

I agree. The shootable scarlet MX on red.com is 14500$. I guess they will maybe replace it with the raven at the same price. New dragon sensor, 120fps, new body, new features, it will be the same price in the best case because it's really so much better. If they cut the price, like 7000-11000 for a shootable raven, I would be worried for Red because nothing would make sense anymore in their strategy which is based on "obsolescence obsolete". That would mean that they can cut any price at any moment and make your camera cost nothing in a sec. It's okay if you buy a 10000$ camera, but I would be worried as a weapon owner for example and i would think about it twice before investing in a pro red camera. That's the "obsolescence obsolete" part that made me interested in that company. If it's becoming "loose all your money if you can't make a payback in 3 monthes" I guess I'm out. But I do hope there will be a logic. People dreaming of a red camera at the price of a GH4, or any other cheap camera, never shot with a Red. It's just in a total different league, there is no competition between the vast majority of cheaper camera and a red or an arri. I'm amazed by some of the requests here.

I'm not worried about it. The Scarlet Dragon is great for me and I don't see any way that the new Raven reflects on its price or its value. It's just another offering in an expanding line of cameras. All is well. The Dragons are current and I am sure that we will all benefit from innovations made in the Weapon line, including the Raven.

 

[Matthew Quinn]

the only reason i mention GH4 is i dont own anything else besides the dragon, im not expecting the raven to cost the same as the GH4.. however if the price is less than 10 grand it will be worth it to just offer RED camera work to my clients, and save the GH4 for family vacations =)

 

[Robert Winter]

Damn this is going to be a long wait until Friday...

So true man... So true...
To be honest I do think this will around 10k$ for a ready to shoot package.
I guess this is a pretty good balance between "our affordable" and "Jarred's affordable"

 

[Hugh Scully]

the only reason i mention GH4 is i dont own anything else besides the dragon, im not expecting the raven to cost the same as the GH4.. however if the price is less than 10 grand it will be worth it to just offer RED camera work to my clients, and save the GH4 for family vacations =)

Sorry. I reread your post more carefully and understand. It may be a really great B cam for lots of folks. I think that's its mission.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

When people say 4.5K+ gives "true" 4K, is that because if the sensor photosite count is exactly 4K, the outer photosites don't have enough surrounding photosites to determine the most accurate color value during debayering?

My now understanding of "nominal pixel count" vs. "measured resolution." My terms, but here is what it means...

Nominal pixel count is just that, you get X number of pixels horizontally across the sensor, In this case, 4096 for "4K" and when you load that image to your timeline, it counts every one of those pixels and recreates a "4K" (4096) time line.

However, because of the de-bayering process, and the fact that there is always some softening of the image due to the presence of an OLPF, measuring the detail of that image will never reveal all the detail that was present in the scene. When test chart are shot, the resulting image can be evaluated in how many lines-per-inch it "resolves" which, as it turns out, is never the full 4K. RED has managed to tweak their own de-bayering algorithms to yield about 80-85% "true resolution, (as measured by lines-per-inch) so it takes about a 4.8K or 5K "nominal"l pixel count to yield detail of a "true" 4K image.

That's the way I understand it. :001_cool:

 

[Tarquin Cardona]

I thinks that is totally correct. Red shot at 5K produces a great 4K image. Straight 4K (4K 4 4K) tends to looks muddier when compared with other imagers like the C300MK2 or FS7 even. So that makes the Raven thing very interesting. Because as much as we want to knock the competition - a lot of clients and producers like the 'cleanness' of the images they see with other cams. So if Raven were a softer 4K when viewed side by side - we all know how that could go. I am really intrigued to see what this is going to be and how they will pull it off. For now - and it sounds like for the foreseeable - shooting over scale to resolve back to 4K will be what makes a real Dragon a Dragon or a Weapon or whatever....

 

[Terry VerHaar]

...

The curiosity here is where exactly will Raven land in the line-up. If Raven features a Dragon sensor, it will fit somewhere in the Dragon line-up:

- Scarlet Dragon
- Epic Dragon
- Weapon MG 6K Dragon
- Weapon CF/Forged 6K Dragon
- Weapon CF/Forged 8K Dragon

...

THIS is, indeed, the dilemma for me. Raven is obviously not going to fall anywhere on the bottom 3/5 of this list; all Weapons will be more capable and higher priced. But, as a Scarlet Dragon owner, this makes for a dilemma for someone like me. The Scarlet and Epic Dragons are terrific cameras BUT, they don't have the new form factor of the Weapon bodies so their physical evolution (vis a vis new accessories) is "stunted" and the upgrade path would seem limited. As it stands, if I want to upgrade my own Scarlet Dragon to Weapon Mg, it's is going to cost me $30K; a big jump. (This after a $10K upgrade to Scarlet Dragon just before NAB!)

So, when the Raven lands, do I have to go "backward" to 4K - and, perhaps whatever other limitations this new "budget" camera has, or will I be somewhat "stranded" between the big leap UP to current Weapons or having to decide to "slide back" to the more affordable path of the Raven.

Personally, I am not complaining as I am contemplating no changes in the very near term (and further change is constant at RED, anyway) AND, I have always seen RED come through with a pretty reasonable opportunity to move forward.

AS it stands, I just don't see a "logical" place for the Raven in the current lineup but, of course, at this point we know so little.

Tick, tick, tick... :undecided: