#4K4ALL

[Adam Montville]

I think that this is going to be below the Scarlet Dragon specs and price wise, not a replacement.

I paid $20,000 to get a useable Scarlet Dragon. I think people don't put that in perspective. That's a lot of money to put in "4k4all". A fixed lens mount doesn't sound like "upgrade " to me. (From Scarlet Dragon)

Also to quote Jarred himself

"And there is definitely a future for Scarlet Dragon... you just don't know about it yet and it is not anywhere near. "

Not anywhere near. That quote was from April. I interpreted that as 1.5 - 2 years down the line. When the new sensor is announced, the R&D for Weapon body would be cheaper by then, and then it would be a 10k upgrade to new body and sensor at once.

I think this Raven would be in the 10k range for "workable camera"

10k Raven
20k Scarlet Dragon
30k Epic Dragon
40k Weapon Dragon
50k Carbon Weapon, etc

 

[Josh Snyder]

Wow. Wow. Wow. That looked absolutely fantastic. I'm looking into that cam now.

And that's the cheaper 4K 12 stops version and that video was shot 1080p ProRes.

 

[Brandon Kelly]

I love my scarlet, but it is nearly 5 year old tech. I think the raven camera should be better in every way, and I don't mind one bit what happens to the value of my scarlet(well kind of haha), it's fairly old now and that's how things go. Tech gets better and the price to specs ratio has to stay relevant. So my point is, when the scarlet mx came out, it was however good related to the tech and market at a certain price, and as things get better every year I expect the cameras specs to get better and better and the prices to stay relevant.

Regardless, if the raven is 4k 30, similar specs as my scarlet but with dragon sensor and the new weaponized form factor, it is a no brainer. Hopefully they are thinking of doing a trade in for scarlet mx. Wishfull thinking I know as I had my chance to go to scarlet D. But for 10k us when the cdn dollar is so shit, well, I decided to get other things like a ronin and such to improve other aspecs of my film making, not just resolution etc. But man oh man do I want to upgrade to something. Pleeeeaaaase.

I am assuming that my current v mount plate, 5" touch etc will work with this new camera as well. Which would be great.

 

[Jack Allred]

Since there's two threads here on Raven speculation, i'm posting this in both:

I time traveled to NAB 2016, and this is what I saw:
RED Raven is a fixed mount camera that uses a normal 6k Dragon sensor with 'standard' OLPF. It records in 4k Prores up to 60fps from the 5.5k sensor area. It does NOT support redcode. Specs:
-Both EF and PL mount bodies available (fixed mount, not swappable)
-Weapon body style
-Prores 422 (all flavors)
-4k, UHD, 2k, & 1080p resolutions supported
-Up to 60fps in 4k/UHD
-Surround view monitoring supported (past the 5.5k sensor area)

I was about to ask about price, but then got pulled back into Sept 2015.
It makes sense to me cuz:
-Red is committed to their dragon sensor, they aren't going to send out anything less or different (fragmenting their imaging brand, or releasing new tech on lower-tier products).
-Red would not promote using their dragon sensor at only the 4k crop (m43, like some have theorized) for a few reasons, including noise and insufficient resolving power.
-Redcode is a premium feature, and will be finally treated as such (like other raw formats) now that prores is part of the RED equation.
-Finally a good use for 120gb minimags
-Will be the new stepping stone to Weapon, as AKS, Modules, Media, and Lenses will all be compatible with Weapon.

In the central hall, I saw Arri announce a >4k sensor camera due in 2017, but that's for another thread...

Any takers?

 

[Zack Birlew]

I'm liking a lot of the guesses. The RED Gopro is a little bit of a stretch as the Gopro is already pretty nice as it is. If I were to come up with a guess, I'd say the thing that would surprise me most is if the Raven turns out to be a camera that's essentially the Weapon full frame sensor but locked at 4K or 5K with minimal frame rates and no lower resolution modes for HFR shooting. Essentially it would be RED's version of the Canon 5D Mark II when it was released. Barebones shooting features, 24P and 30P, that's it, but the image is incredible and it's amazingly affordable for what it is. It would be a great compromise but let's be real, would you need more than that for most shooting scenarios? HFR is fun but you can always use a different RED camera for that or an inexpensive alternative like a Sony RX10 Mark II or even your phone in some instances.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

If I were to come up with a guess, I'd say the thing that would surprise me most is if the Raven turns out to be a camera that's essentially the Weapon full frame sensor but locked at 4K or 5K with minimal frame rates and no lower resolution modes for HFR shooting. Essentially it would be RED's version of the Canon 5D Mark II when it was released.

That doesn't make a lot of sense -- the 4K area of the Dragon sensor is only 20.47mm x 10.79mm. The 8K Full-Frame sensor is just a larger cut of the wafer, so there is no reason to cut an 8K 40mm x 20mm sensor out of the wafer but then restrict to recording a 4K 20.47mm x 10.79mm area. Plus that wouldn't be like the Canon 5D, which uses pixel binning to be able to get an HD picture using all of the full-frame sensor image area.

 

[Zack Birlew]

True, David, unless it did a full sensor readout like the Sony RX10 and other modern Sony cameras are doing. That way there's no cropping and you get the benefit of full frame coverage, albeit at 4K instead of the full 8K. That was what I should have added in as that was my intention when saying it would be based on the full frame Weapon sensor. So, in effect, a low cost Full Frame RED #4K4ALL Cam.

 

[Shanon Fernald]

Forgetting specs, price is really more interesting to me.

To me its biggest competition will be:

1. Sony fs5 $5600
2. Blackmagic Mini Ursa EF $5000 PL $5500


I think, more importantly than anything, that's the price range the Raven should live in, and Red should simply build the best camera they can currently afford at that price range. And to get the camera actually running shouldn't cost THAT much more. The FS5 uses cheap SD cards and the Ursa uses Cfast which is dropping in price. Both have unique and amazing features. For example, FS5 has an electronic ND filter system and the Ursa has a global shutter. Somehow Red has to make it not cost $10k to get this camera running. $6k okay, but not $10k. That puts it against a different class of competitors and in a different market (fs7 & 0-down c300 mkII).

 

[sam karr]

Wow. Wow. Wow. That looked absolutely fantastic. I'm looking into that cam now.

The moire in that ursa footage is worrying.

 

[Karim D. Ghantous]

I'm also seeing a great opportunity for indies who want to shoot anamorphic on a "squarish" sensor that is 4K-ish tall (20mm-ish). Having better vertical resolution would also support cine-photography applications.

A good point there which is not often talked about. The 4:3 section of a 2:1 5K sensor is nowhere near 4K.

-Prores 422 (all flavors)
-4k, UHD, 2k, & 1080p resolutions supported
-Up to 60fps in 4k/UHD

I like that thinking. The cool thing about ProRes: it's ready to go as soon as it's shot. Sort of like reversal film with a bit more flexibility.

In the central hall, I saw Arri announce a >4k sensor camera due in 2017, but that's for another thread...

Gosh. I thought that 2K was enough?

 

[Bruce Allen]

I think that this is going to be below the Scarlet Dragon specs and price wise, not a replacement.

I paid $20,000 to get a useable Scarlet Dragon. I think people don't put that in perspective. That's a lot of money to put in "4k4all". A fixed lens mount doesn't sound like "upgrade " to me. (From Scarlet Dragon)

Also to quote Jarred himself

"And there is definitely a future for Scarlet Dragon... you just don't know about it yet and it is not anywhere near. "

Not anywhere near. That quote was from April. I interpreted that as 1.5 - 2 years down the line. When the new sensor is announced, the R&D for Weapon body would be cheaper by then, and then it would be a 10k upgrade to new body and sensor at once.

I think this Raven would be in the 10k range for "workable camera"

10k Raven
20k Scarlet Dragon
30k Epic Dragon
40k Weapon Dragon
50k Carbon Weapon, etc

Interesting point! Though you could also see Scarlet kinda like the Sony F3. Good camera. Not made obsolete by the Sony FS700... but at the same time the FS700 was more compact and is competitive or maybe even better in certain cases even though it cost less. Then the FS7 comes out and the FS700 still isn't made obsolete either. It has a couple spec advantages in some areas and the FS7 has them in other areas and is more convenient in certain ways. FS7 is better overall and the FS700 goes down in price. Then the same thing when the FS5 comes out. FS700 is still available!

RE: RED's future... uh, has anyone TRIED the phase detect AF features on a Samsung NX1, or a Sony a7rII, or a Canon C300 Mk2? It's bloody amazing. MacGregor shot this entire thing using AF on my little Samsung NX1m which I bought used, WITH a 16-50 2.0-2.8 image-stabilized zoom for only $2000:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttl-kF8Rbuo
And the C300 Mk2 is even better.

My prediction is in a year or two RED will have a sensor to succeed the Dragon that is less noisy, has even better color separation, higher fps and has great phase-detect autofocus built in.

RED will also do minor convenience revisions to their Weapon body to have HDMI 2.0a (HDR 4K, 12bit whatever) outputs built in, lower power consumption, quieter, etc etc. Plus probably v2 of the motion mount.

And oh yeah, how about 5-axis sensor image stabilization like Sony and Olympus?

And RED will offer upgrades from the Scarlet Dragons and Epic Dragons and Ravens and older Weapons to a new set of cameras.

So there's lots of room for future upgrades without needing to hobble a RED RAVEN.

Bruce Allen
www.twitter.com/bruce_allen

 

[Luke Neumann]

For someone with more knowledge than me:

Did RED open up some sort of new tech with the ProRes in Weapon? As I understand it, the 4K Pro Res is NOT windowed like Redcode 4K. Doesn't that mean the same idea should be possible with RedCode on Raven?

Raven would be very interesting if it was a 4:3 full read out of ANY (MX, Dragon, or...VV) sensor scaled down to 4K.

Either way, I truly hope it's a 4:3 window and you can get 3160 tall.

 

[Ryan Sauve]

The moire in that ursa footage is worrying.

Seriously? Other than the one shot of the collar (which I'll admit stood out like a sore thumb), didn't really notice it anywhere else. Maybe I need to watch it several more times? Anyhow, I'll be renting the mini 4.6k when it comes out. If I'm happy with the results, it's my next 2nd camera. That's unless the Raven can offer something comparable but I don't see how without cannibalizing the Scarlet line.

 

[Phil Holland]

For someone with more knowledge than me:

Did RED open up some sort of new tech with the ProRes in Weapon? As I understand it, the 4K Pro Res is NOT windowed like Redcode 4K. Doesn't that mean the same idea should be possible with RedCode on Raven?

Raven would be very interesting if it was a 4:3 full read out of ANY (MX, Dragon, or...VV) sensor scaled down to 4K.

Either way, I truly hope it's a 4:3 window and you can get 3160 tall.

REDCODE RAW is RAW. It will never be scaled down as it's a RAW format. ProRes is indeed scaled down to 4K or 2K from whatever format/resolution you're shooting at.

3160 pixels tall is what you have with Epic Dragon and Weapon 6K Dragon today. Not entirely clear what "different" you want, though I know everybody would like a slightly taller sensor for exploring anamorphic.

If Raven is 4K4ALL in terms of affordability, I'm not entirely sure there will be an 8K Dragon sensor in there. That sensor alone is very, very expensive. I'm guessing it's going to be 5K or 4K, but what's not clear is if it's Dragon in there or some other mystery sensor.

 

[Luke Neumann]

Not entirely clear what "different" you want, though I know everybody would like a slightly taller sensor for exploring anamorphic.

Nothing different, I mean if they are putting a windowed version of any sensor in there, I would really love the full height of it as "FF". So if it's the 4K center of the Dragon sensor, it would be lovely to have it be 4096x3160. Although I'm sure that's a long shot...for various reasons.

Also, REDCODE RAW isn't actually RAW is it? Isn't it compressed? I know it has RAW characteristics but if it was in fact RAW I wouldn't have to stink eye that 17:1 number when I shoot HFR I'm curious as to whether that compromise could be had in resolution instead of compression?

Personally, if it's going to be 4K and 4K alone, I just might prefer a full readout of the Dragon sensor to get that 4K ProRes instead of a windowed Redcode. Kinda thinking that's what this could be now.

Good thing I'm not a betting man though

 

[Phil Holland]

Nothing different, I mean if they are putting a windowed version of any sensor in there, I would really love the full height of it as "FF". So if it's the 4K center of the Dragon sensor, it would be lovely to have it be 4096x3160. Although I'm sure that's a long shot...for various reasons.

Also, REDCODE RAW isn't actually RAW is it? Isn't it compressed? Personally, if it's going to be 4K and 4K alone, I just might prefer a full readout of the Dragon sensor to get that 4K ProRes instead of a windowed Redcode. Kinda thinking that's what this could be now.

Good thing I'm not a betting man though

Ah I get you now about the height. That would be interesting.

REDCODE RAW isn't a pure uncompressed RAW stream of course, it is indeed a compressed raw format. But things like noise reduction, scaling, and sharpening are not part of the REDCODE RAW concept. Outside of the benefits of the variable compression ratio, RED wants REDCODE to maintain it's "rawness".

 

[Luke Neumann]

Ah I get you now about the height. That would be interesting.

REDCODE RAW isn't a pure uncompressed RAW stream of course, it is indeed a compressed raw format. But things like noise reduction, scaling, and sharpening are not part of the REDCODE RAW concept. Outside of the benefits of the variable compression ratio, RED wants REDCODE to maintain it's "rawness".

Gotcha.

So I guess that's my question. Since we now know that it is part of the Weapon ProRes (scaling/sharpening etc.). Is it possible to get that worked in, via firmware, to Redcode for Dragon and other cameras?

I would love to be able to get the full read out and finish in good ol' UHD Redcode for some projects.

 

[David Peterson]

FS7 doesn't even use SxS cards, but XQD cards. So that won't stop them

Though the F55 does use SxS (was on a shoot this weekend with an F55 used).
My own personal PMW-F3 uses SxS too, but I haven't spent a dime on them. As I can use my fast SD cards from my BMPCC inside an SxS adapter in the camera. Easy! :-D

 

[Phil Holland]

One of the beauties of RED is that it has always been COMPRESSED RAW.

One of the beauties of Weapon Carbon is that it's compression is fast approaching UNCOMPRESSED levels (I believe it may hit 2:1 at 5K?).

Bingo. Yep indeed. Weapon Forged CF and Woven CF can do 24fps (and 25fps) 5K FF at 2:1 REDCODE RAW Compression Ratio.

What's absolutely sick is that you are getting essentially pure RAW stream fidelity with no visible evidence of any lossly compression at that point while still getting the benefit of the smaller file size. This is huge actually.

6K and 5.5K seem to be at 3:1 which is also huge in my mind. I'm very curious about the minimum compression ratio on 8K. We've seen 5:1 thus far. I'm wondering if 4:1 is attainable still. I think 8K WS might allow for 4:1.

Oh, and anamorphic shooters, 6K 6:5 can be 2:1 at 24fps. Which to me means 8K 6:5, which will 100% be a format people use for anamorphic features will have a nice and low minimum REDCODE compression ratio.

Gotcha.

So I guess that's my question. Since we now know that it is part of the Weapon ProRes (scaling/sharpening etc.). Is it possible to get that worked in, via firmware, to Redcode for Dragon and other cameras?

I would love to be able to get the full read out and finish in good ol' UHD Redcode for some projects.

Weapon has ProRes support due to a hardware encoder existing within the camera brain. I also think there's something going on with the "stream architecture" in there as well. Not possible to implement on Epic and Scarlet bodies, but certainly something RED can slam into other new cameras.

 

[Nick Morrison]

Oh, and anamorphic shooters, 6K 6:5 can be 2:1 at 24fps. Which to me means 8K 6:5, which will 100% be a format people use for anamorphic features will have a nice and low minimum REDCODE compression ratio.

WOW 6K anamorphic at 2:1? That's going to be INSANE, and very popular.