#4K4ALL

[Curtis Edlin]

Am I the only one who thinks it will be an entirely new sensor? Take this into consideration, the SSD Module says Raven. If you look at a Weapon SSD Module, it says Dragon. The real question is the new camera even called Raven or possibly the new sensor?

 

[Nick Morrison]

Am I the only one who thinks it will be an entirely new sensor? Take this into consideration, the SSD Module says Raven. If you look at a Weapon SSD Module, it says Dragon. The real question is the new camera even called Raven or possibly the new sensor?

As someone said before, we've seen WEAPON on the side module too. I can't imagine RED bending over backwards to make an affordable sensor. Seems more likely they are democratizing the already established Dragon Sensor.

 

[Clayton Moore]

There was few unhappy owners when RED cut EPICs price in half without any notice. RED is not scared to make big changes.

Like Apple companies don’t choose to release products into the market just to be nice guys. If there was no profit to be made in a lower priced model it would make no sense for RED to do so. According to Doug Sheer, CEO of D.I.S. Consulting, between the residual of the 2008 crash and the current free fall of prices, there are a lot of manufacturers in this business that are hanging by a thread and are prime candidates for acquisition. There is no reason to believe RED is one of those companies but the point of bringing that up is - within that current market context, If RED were able to sustain their business model by staying only at the high end price point, it would make no sense for them to do any differently right now. So somehow they need to do this.

 

[Mendes Nabil]

Am I the only one who thinks it will be an entirely new sensor? Take this into consideration, the SSD Module says Raven. If you look at a Weapon SSD Module, it says Dragon. The real question is the new camera even called Raven or possibly the new sensor?

Look at the first Weapon pics Curtis, you'll see "Weapon" engraved under the RED ..

This new Raven will be to Weapon what Scarlet is to Epic, "The indie version", but the difference between these new two version will be more important, in term of price and specs..

 

[Jake Wilganowski]

To me its just the lower end version of Weapon, just like the scarlet was the lower end model of Epic. Makes perfect sense.

 

[Brandon Kelly]

Oh man I sure hope Nick is right! I think hes in the ballpark for specs, and I am hoping price :001_unsure:

 

[Charles_Z]

I think what most people are hoping for in a "budget" RED camera is something along the lines of 4K@30 FPS and Dragon tech.

 

[Ash Worth]

New market push focussed on a streamlined workflow care of G-Technology. This alleviates those holdouts concerned with the RED process. Ready to shoot at around 15K, trade ins for Scarlet owners, "we haven't forgotten about you...", upgrades down the road.

 

[Curtis Edlin]

I totally agree but RED will continue following the already established new body, new sensor, new body, new sensor format. A new sensor is going to happen, the question is when. Honestly would you rather want to put a brand new sensor in a lower end camera (aka Scarlet), which comes with a new learning curve (bugs, etc) so that you can learn from it or would you rather want to see a new sensor go straight in a higher end body?

 

[Josh Snyder]

Well now there's first video shot with URSA Mini 4K. It was recorded in 1080p ProRes though (so not even using 4K and RAW). Looks pretty good anyways, and it's a camera that costs under 3k$: https://vimeo.com/139130557

I have no doubt URSA Mini 4.6K with 15 stops DR will perform very well (4K has 12 stops). I mean it costs under 5k$ which is pretty nuts. Waiting RED's answer

 

[Omar N]

Well now there's first video shot with URSA Mini 4K. It was recorded in 1080p ProRes though (so not even using 4K and RAW). Looks pretty good anyways, and it's a camera that costs under 3k$: https://vimeo.com/139130557

I have no doubt URSA Mini 4.6K with 15 stops DR will perform very well (4K has 12 stops). I mean it costs under 5k$ which is pretty nuts. Waiting RED's answer

Wow, I gotta say, that really does look good. Very impressive.

Red always said they were not interested in competing in the low end market, which is why they dropped the original fixed lens Scarlet idea. Curious how the Raven will fit in with that.

 

[Clayton Moore]

I think what most people are hoping for in a "budget" RED camera is something along the lines of 4K@30 FPS and Dragon tech.

As I recall there was a desire early on to see a 4k camera for $4k ... this came from Jannard I think. The field is very crowded right now for cameras and RED needs an entry level camera to feed its closed eco-system work flow and preserve a RED upgrade path. To quote someone - "if you're already into SxS with an FS7, the clear upgrade is the F55, for example, not an EPIC anything."

 

[Kyle Wright]

Since my business partner decided to get out of the camera ownership game and I can't afford to buy out his share of our Epic Dragon kit (I bought a set of lenses the month before he decided to get out), I've been looking at the BM Ursa Mini 4.6K as a potential new camera. Since RED doesn't live in a vacuum, they have to face the facts that the competition is offering:

4.6K sensor with 15 (claimed) stops of DR
S35 sized sensor
PL mount
Magnesium alloy body
60 FPS (30 FPS with global shutter)
120 FPS 1080P slow motion
moderately priced, non-proprietary media
Recording in RAW or ProRes
4K out over SDI
built in 5" monitor

All this for $5,495.

RED can't ignore that this is where the market it at right now. Sure, we haven't seen what the new BM sensor can do yet, but it's sure to be an upgrade from the current sensor, which would put BM in striking distance of the Dragon sensor.

I like my RED workflow. I like shooting RED. I hope that the Raven will give me something that will at least acknowledge the pricing and image quality value that the URSA mini is bringing. I'd love for my next camera to be another RED, but I'm not going to throw away money if the URSA Mini is a vastly cheaper option with 95% of the image quality.

 

[Joachim Hoge]

As I recall there was a desire early on to see a 4k camera for $4k ... this came from Jannard I think. The field is very crowded right now for cameras and RED needs an entry level camera to feed its closed eco-system work flow and preserve a RED upgrade path. To quote someone - "if you're already into SxS with an FS7, the clear upgrade is the F55, for example, not an EPIC anything."

FS7 doesn't even use SxS cards, but XQD cards. So that won't stop them

 

[Uros Zuraj]

i think this will be a great B-cam for existing Red Epic/Epic Dragon/Weapon users. 6K is more then nice but 4k is still more then good enough. Specially for B-Roll.
I think they have a lot of M-X sensors in the warehouse from all those upgrades and they are gone put them to use in a new body with only 4K and lower FPS (up to 60 i think). GoPro did that with all the white and silver editions (old sensor in a new body) and it was a success.

 

[Michael Tushaus]

Something to consider may be less obvious. I am thinking that the RAVEN will be an excellent improvement upon the SCARLET, and deliver us all the many features including the DRAGON sensor everyone is wanting. However, I would then presume it would be an upgrade from the SCARLET in many ways, and, that there would be an upgrade path because of this. HOWEVER, I think where 4K4ALL may come in is the idea that with the introduction of RAVEN, the current SCARLET may see a price reduction making it somewhere around $3-$5K which would create the opportunity for several new RED owners that couldn't buy in before. RED has established this aggressive idea before when it drastically dropped the RED ONE and the EPIC prices. They also had that "deal of a lifetime" with the 100 or so SCARLETS that were used for a day and sold for almost $5K less than the original new price. Later, the new price was decreased for SCARLET. This would make sense also considering that the SCARLET upgrade to DRAGON is for a limited time and would be ended before a possible price drop. Something to consider. However, if RAVEN really is the actual game-changer in price versus features, that would be very welcomed, too.

 

[Brandon J.F.]

As someone said before, we've seen WEAPON on the side module too. I can't imagine RED bending over backwards to make an affordable sensor. Seems more likely they are democratizing the already established Dragon Sensor.

I agree, there's no way this is a different sensor. Jarred said, when Weapon was announced, that there is something coming down the pipe for indie filmmakers. This is that. The only questions are the resolution and frame rate limitations, and the price. Also, is this replacing the Scarlet line or does Raven fit in beneath Scarlet in price and feature set. We'll know soon...

 

[Elsie N]

My expectations have been that any new sensor will be more expensive rather than less so. But I've always wondered what would become of those sensors that are traded in... even to the point of sending out Dragon Weapons for a month or two before exchanging them for 8k VV. It stands to reason they will be re-incarnated as something else.

But if true, sadly this means no Battle Tested Epic Dragons at a nice price. But happily, maybe it means a new Raven at an even better price.

 

[Adam Rook]

You know what? I don't care who you are that Ursa Mini footage that Josh linked to is darn impressive. https://vimeo.com/139130557

You have to admit that's some really great footage. I do hope Red have a serious magic ace up their sleeve with Raven because after seeing that I might need to seriously consider taking a look at Ursa. But not before I see more footage from it.
Come on, Jarred... if you guys can come anywhere close to blowing that thing out of the water you will have turned the cinema industry on it's head once again. Please deliver big on this one. We are all gunning for Red on this one and holding our breath.
Just let us know something soon because I kinda need to know which direction to go with my next camera purchase.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

My guess: somewhere 8K sensors are being cut out of large substrates and run through QC. Since there are over 30 million photo sites on each 8K cut, the odds of having just one bad one is pretty high. Would you rather throw that expensive part in the trash, or cut it in half and put the "good" half - 4096 x 4096 (nominal) in a "entry level" camera that can utilize the same color science, OLPF design, etc being developed for Dragon anyway?

I'm also seeing a great opportunity for indies who want to shoot anamorphic on a "squarish" sensor that is 4K-ish tall (20mm-ish). Having better vertical resolution would also support cine-photography applications.

BTW, if I've guessed right I think I deserve a free camera... rogar-Smoke(DBG):

Cheers - #19